Statues & Veneration of Mary

[Fidesetratio]

Hello All,

On the subtopic of what divides Catholics and Messianic-Jews, my experience is that when they see veneration of Mary, especially in processions in Europe on feast days - this is seen as highly idolatory, probably a major stumbling block especially if she is viewed as "Queen of Heaven" from the Old Testament.

Anyone elses thoughts?

Peace,
Rob

[Hadassah]

Hi Rob,

Welcome to the forum... I am a Catholic myself and have minimal direct exposure to Messianic congregations as a whole so I cannot offer a truly comprehensive opinion. Perhaps Ariel will have time to give some input...

It would seem on a "doctrinal" level that some of the issues that separate Catholics and Messianic Jews are similar to those that separate Catholics and Protestants: the understanding of the Church, the Eucharist, papal authority, Mary and the saints, all being part of that. A Marian procession using a statue can certainly seem idolotrous to an outsider viewer who believes that we worship the statue itself or to those who mistake veneration of the Mother of God to be worship. But I can't imagine that that's a prevalent image for most in this day and age and so wonder whether that is a primary sticking point. Am I wrong? I would be interested to see results of your survey.

God bless,
Hadassah

[Cherie]

Hi there guys! My Messianic Jewish friend is very anti Catholic. She believes that statues, pictures, and even the cross is idolatrous. She says that the only 'item' approved by Yahweh is the menorah (I apologize if my spelling is incorrect!) I become very heartsore at times, because there is such beauty within the Catholic Church + a depth that cannot be seen or understood by non Catholics. It is sad but true! There are many Catholics as well who don't really understand their faith.

[Ariel]

the poll is a good one; the only problem is, it needs a 'all of the above' answer, or at least the possibility of selecting multiple options!
Yes, Marian veneration is a biggie (that was my vote), though statues, the pope, and the history of Jewish/Christian relations are also major stumbling blocks. I would say the Real Presence is much less of an issue.

Personally it drives me nuts when they have a procession here in Jerusalem following Christmas Mass where all the faithful line up to come and kiss the doll of baby Jesus. This is like saying "let's try to do the most offensive things possible to our Jewish guests (for there are hundreds who come to Christmas Mass) and have them leave with the firm conviction that Catholics do, in fact, worship statues."

A little inculturation and sensitivity anyone? Please pray for our priests in the Holy Land that they would get the hint that we are to draw people to the Messiah, not push them away from him.

[Hadassah]

Hi Rob, Cherie, Ariel:

where all the faithful line up to come and kiss the doll of baby Jesus.

This is so interesting. I have never seen this particular thing. Here in the U.S. (at least where I am) we just don't do much of this. I have been a Catholic all my life and have actually never participated in a procession where a statue or image of Mary, another saint, or even of Our Lord was carried about or venerated. And I have always belonged to fairly traditional Catholic parishes. We have Eucharistic processions throughout the year ~ but of course, that is worship and adoration of our Lord Himself. Perhaps this phenomenon differs here in the US.

We should recall that God commanded the use of statues in certain instances related to worship and as a means to show forth his presence. Cherie mentioned that her friend says that the only "item" approved by the Lord is the menorah. Presumably she means the 7-branch not the 9-branch, based on Exodus 25. But if we recall the rest of Exodus 25, we see, of course, that God commands that two cherubim be fashioned for either side of the ark (Exodus 25:18-20). It is between the two cherubim that God's presence dwells. In the Catholic church where I worship, we have the two cherubim on either side of the tabernacle, where God's presence dwells.

Then there is the seraph on the rod, of course (Numbers 21:1-9). This, I find interesting, for this statue of a serpant is preserved and it isn't until Hezekiah that this serpant is smashed because the Israelites are burning incense to it (2 Kings 18:4). It reminds us that it isn't the statue itself that violates the command of the Lord. In fact the statue was the command of the Lord. It is our misguided approach to that thing that violates the command.

It perhaps does us well in the face of individual Catholics who appear to worship statues to recall the actual teaching of the Church. "Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2114). This can mean a statue, but can also mean money, sex, power, etc.

I have recently taken to reading on the Chabad website. I was directed there by a friend of mine who is a close friend of the local Chabad rabbi's wife. I find it comforting because I find such similarities in thinking there, a similar worldview in many respects.This is a nice simple article which I think comes very close capturing the essence of Catholic teaching on the subject.

If only we could all find absolutely nothing else to seek after but the Lord himself!

In Christ,
Hadassah

[Ariel]

yes, the idea is not to push iconoclasm of course, but in my humble opinion (or not so humble?) some non-essential customs and devotions are best kept away from places where they will be a certain stumbling block to the local people.

The habad site is great, I often consult it for Rashi's commentaries on the Bible.

[Cherie]

Hi once again! I must admit, I never thought of mentioning the Covenant of the Ark to my Messianic Jewish friend. I have read about it as a pro Catholic argument when idolatry is brought up. Thanks Hadassah for reminding me! I have to admit though that people do get the impression that Catholics 'worship' statues of Mary, when they visit our church, perhaps for a baptism or funeral. You will always find a very devout Catholic lady light a candle, kneel down + gaze upon the face of the Mary in absolute adoration. Non Catholics ofcourse are going to get the wrong idea! 'Actions speak louder than words.' Catholics need to be careful, so as not to give the wrong impression!

[Cherie]

Sorry! Ark of the Covenant.

[Hadassah]

I have to admit though that people do get the impression that Catholics 'worship' statues of Mary, when they visit our church, perhaps for a baptism or funeral. You will always find a very devout Catholic lady light a candle, kneel down + gaze upon the face of the Mary in absolute adoration. Non Catholics ofcourse are going to get the wrong idea! 'Actions speak louder than words.' Catholics need to be careful, so as not to give the wrong impression!

Yes, sometimes people are affected by their own prejudices, presumptions, unhealthy iconoclasm, etc :-). The woman you describe, of course, does nothing wrong presuming that, when she looks adoringly at the statue, she gives her love and admiration not to the statue (for that would be ridiculous; the statue serves only as a reminder) but rightly to the Mother of Our Lord.

There is an unhealthy view of statues and images which goes in the other direction ~ the direction which caused them all to be smashed to bits during the Reformation. It seems to me that anyone who denies the fact that visual images and statues help us to remember who someone is and what they represent to us is denying the obvious. For example, what if we could be in that woman's home with her at night where a picture of her late husband sat by her bed? What if she got into bed and gazed at the picture adoringly for a time before falling asleep? What if she kissed her fingers and touched them to the picture before turning off the light? What if she even kissed the picture itself? How many of us would go away saying, "Did you see how she worshipped that picture!" No one. We'd speculate that her mind was recalling all that he had meant to her. We'd say that she loved her darling husband with all her heart and that she truly missed his presence. Why does the woman's gaze at the Blessed Mother indicate anything different?

It was at the Second Council of Nicea in the late 8th century, in response to the iconoclast controversy, that the Church spoke officially about the use of images (most especially icons) and statues of Our Lord, the Blessed Mother, angels and saints. The Council said:

"The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as their models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration (latria) which, in accordance with our faith, is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects. [...] Indeed, the honour paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model, and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image.”

Just some thoughts...

Hadassah

[Cherie]

Hi Hadassah! I fully understand the motive behind a Catholic kissing a picture of Our Saviour, or His mother. Many non Catholics do gaze at photos of loved ones + even kiss the images. The veneration of the Cross on Good Friday, especially kissing the feet of the crucified Christ is a very emotional experience for me. My gripe is this, some Catholics, when they know there are a lot of visitors in church will go out of their way to 'perform' a 'very Catholic devotion', which gives the incorrect impression. Don't get me wrong! I once visited a Pentecostal church + a very zealous member of that particular denomination got very carried away. I was totally shocked, because at the time I had no idea of the Pentecostal doctrines, or style of worship. I misunderstood the whole 'episode' + vowed to steer clear for life! God bless, Cherie.

[Fidesetratio]

Hello Ariel,

the poll is a good one; the only problem is, it needs a 'all of the above' answer, or at least the possibility of selecting multiple options!

Thanks - this is my first poll I have ever posted - so I probably didnt think it through thoroughly enough - but yes your right - I will put in an "all of above".

Personally it drives me nuts when they have a procession here in Jerusalem following Christmas Mass where all the faithful line up to come and kiss the doll of baby Jesus. This is like saying "let's try to do the most offensive things possible to our Jewish guests (for there are hundreds who come to Christmas Mass) and have them leave with the firm conviction that Catholics do, in fact, worship statues."

I personally still struggle with Marian devotion to the point where I feel at times in some places it borderlines idolatory. I pray to Mary, pray the Rosary (fully understanding that the prayers to the communion of saints are so they intercede on our behalf before God) but i still struggle actually kneeling in front of a statue of her in Mass. I see others touching the statue as they pray and that may be there thing, but if an outsider was to see (ie. Jew) they would find it offensive. Especially the crowning of Mary as queen of heaven and physically placing the crown on her head - i can just see every other Christian - Jew would see this as highly idolatorous.

A little inculturation and sensitivity anyone? Please pray for our priests in the Holy Land that they would get the hint that we are to draw people to the Messiah, not push them away from him.

Our Church is right next to a Synagogue and though when we have mass its probably not in use, but i talked to our Parish priest about the word Yahweh in songs & readings and how Jews find it offensive saying the name of God. He kind of agreed with me to a point. I agree we should try to draw people to Christ and not push them away.
I beleive the Church is already in process of revising the missal to remove Yahweh from readings & songs though I cant remember where i read this.

Rob

[Fidesetratio]

Hello All,

Tried to edit the poll to include "all of the above" but cant seem to find an edit option on the poll itself. Is that "locked" in now so i can't edit it?
Maybe the moderators can do it for me

Peace,
Rob

[Athol]

I think the biggest obstacle is their Gentile evangelical converters who indoctrinate them with their anti-Catholic ideas. Many Jews who became Messianic don't seem to be as anti-Catholic as their evangelical converters. I have always found most Jewish people quite positive towards Mother Mary even when they are hostile to Jesus.

cheers Athol

[Hadassah]

Rob and All,

I certainly want to be sensitive. In fact I thank God for Ariel and Athol and others who have helped me to become more so in areas regarding the Jewish people just over the last months. And Lord knows that I want nothing more than to draw people to Christ and to His Church. I guess I would like to hear more about what you are thinking. How would you have the Church or general practice change?

You mentioned the change regarding the divine tetragrammaton (YHWH). If you are interested in the letter, you can find it here. As far as I know, this does not affect the English translations of the Roman Missal nor the translation of the New American Bible which does not use the word in the main text. And the music publisher we use has only one song which would be at issue. So I don't think that the prevalence of speaking the Lord's name was all that great (at least here) to begin with.

As an aside, I was in a lovely Jewish bookstore the other day and had a wonderful discussion with the proprietor (a rabbi also and father of nine) about the Names of God. And the names of Moses, actually. Interestingly, he assumed throughout our conversation that I was Jewish. It is a family owned business and the elderly father and his sons also restore Torah scrolls from all over the world and place them in local Jewish synagogues. It was a wonderful and interesting visit.

Hadassah

[Fidesetratio]

Rob and All,

.... I guess I would like to hear more about what you are thinking. How would you have the Church or general practice change?

Hi Hadassah,

I have been brought up Catholic, but once i started to read the Bible on my own, nearly found myself a Baptist, then after stumbling upon Catholic forums, i found my way back to being Catholic. I have been studying Catholic Apologetics and am quite confident in defending most of the typical anti-Catholic attacks. Believe me - i have seen just about all of them.

However, there are some areas I personally struggle with, and not that I can't defend it from a Catholic perspective, but sometimes I feel like im still searching for the "truth" - if you know what i mean.
Like alot of people we all have our own opinion of how we think we can change the Church for the better. I think its best to keep my opinions to myself as i dont want to cause any animosity here, as I am a guest.
I will make one exception and say - the doctrine of Assumption - I really feel the argument from Scripture is weak at best, and to dogmatize it I really feel was unnecessary & counter-productive to try & unite Christians.
But thats my personal feelings - and I know i still have to submit to the Church!

You mentioned the change regarding the divine tetragrammaton (YHWH). If you are interested in the letter, you can find it here. As far as I know, this does not affect the English translations of the Roman Missal nor the translation of the New American Bible which does not use the word in the main text. And the music publisher we use has only one song which would be at issue. So I don't think that the prevalence of speaking the Lord's name was all that great (at least here) to begin with.

Thanks for the letter...I knew i read it somewhere! Just couldnt remember.

As an aside, I was in a lovely Jewish bookstore the other day and had a wonderful discussion with the proprietor (a rabbi also and father of nine) about the Names of God. And the names of Moses, actually. Interestingly, he assumed throughout our conversation that I was Jewish. It is a family owned business and the elderly father and his sons also restore Torah scrolls from all over the world and place them in local Jewish synagogues. It was a wonderful and interesting visit.

Hadassah

So I take there are some "liberal" (for lack of a better word) Jews that dont have a problem mentioning the name of God, ie YHWH in general discussion etc...?

Peace to all,
Rob

[Hadassah]

Hello Rob,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I suppose what I was thinking about as I read your original message was how to balance the concern voiced by both you and Ariel to refrain from offense with the actual practice of Catholics in the pews. I venture to say that there will always be a May Crowning, for example. Or those who want to touch the image or kiss the statue. What is the solution?

I liken it to my personal issue which is the St. Jude Novena. No issue with a novena. Or Jude, of course. It's just the make 9 copies for 9 days part that gets me. And the, "your prayer will be answered no matter what" business. I take them out of the church. I explain it to people who ask why I'm taking them all away. I write periodic paragraphs about it. Yet 9 more show up the next day. One day 9 showed up in English and 9 in Spanish. Our associate pastor made up a song about them because he knows that they drive me crazy (which he translated spontaneously into Spanish the day the Spanish novenas showed up). It's actually pretty entertaining. We should put it on You-Tube. What will people think, I responded?! We don't pray like that!! God decides what's best for us. And we're not superstitious. Ahhh... The bottom line is that I have no solution. The teaching of the Church regarding prayer will have to stand firm against the appearance of the St. Jude novena. Because I can't make them go away.

So I take there are some "liberal" (for lack of a better word) Jews that dont have a problem mentioning the name of God, ie YHWH in general discussion etc...?

I am sure there are, but I don't think it would be this man. An Orthodox Jew... By his dress, by what he said, by the fact that he is a sofer, by the fact that it was a Friday around noon and the store was closing at 2 so that they could go home and prepare to celebrate Shabbas. All this indicated that he was probably fairly observant. I am learning a little Hebrew, so we spoke of the ways by which God is called. For example, "Elyon" (supreme or most high) or "Shaddai" (Almightly). I have always been fascinated with passages like Isaiah 9:5, "For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace." Learning Hebrew words for the Lord is also fascinating to me. They seem to have an even greater import or weight. Hard to explain perhaps. The tetragrammaton never came up. He seemed to have no problem with the conversation.

God bless,
Hadassah

[Fidesetratio]

Hello Rob,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I suppose what I was thinking about as I read your original message was how to balance the concern voiced by both you and Ariel to refrain from offense with the actual practice of Catholics in the pews. I venture to say that there will always be a May Crowning, for example. Or those who want to touch the image or kiss the statue. What is the solution?

God bless,
Hadassah

Hi Hadassah,
OK, I understand now. I guess theres probably a fine line in not trying to be offensive while remaining a devout Catholic in the pews!
I guess i dont have a solution and unfortunately I feel many Jews that do find the Messiah in Yeshua will probably be more like the Evangelical type than Catholic....I dont know.

Since coming to know more about Israel & learning more on the significance of the Old Testament feasts & traditions etc & how they relate to the new, and always wonder whether the early Gentile Christians did mess up a bit by ignoring the importance of the Jewish feasts & traditions?

Anyway...have many more questions to ask so i will leave that for another thread!

Peace[/b]

[Hadassah]

Hi Rob,

OK, I understand now. I guess theres probably a fine line in not trying to be offensive while remaining a devout Catholic in the pews! I guess i dont have a solution...

Well, I think you're absolutely right that some people go too far. But I also think that we both probably need to be ok with the fact that we can't control everything that happens. We just need to be clear about Church teaching. The behavior of individuals will always run the gamut.

...and unfortunately I feel many Jews that do find the Messiah in Yeshua will probably be more like the Evangelical type than Catholic....I dont know.

I personally don't understand why this would be. This would be something to figure out.

Since coming to know more about Israel & learning more on the significance of the Old Testament feasts & traditions etc & how they relate to the new, and always wonder whether the early Gentile Christians did mess up a bit by ignoring the importance of the Jewish feasts & traditions?

You are probably correct about this too, but we also need to recognize what has not been ignored. On New Year's Eve I had dinner with friends, mostly Catholic, but also with a couple who are Evangelical Protestants. They had been to Israel just before last New Year's Eve and so we were discussing that, given the current situation. The wife is currently doing a woman's Bible study on Exodus and she was talking about the significance of all the aspects of the Passover under the New Covenant and how they were really being brought out in the study. I said, "Oh, yes! And of course in the Catholic Church the celebration of the Eucharist reflects all of that and more that we find in the Old Testament." and I proceeded to draw parallels for her, even down to the elements we find in the sanctuary of a Catholic Church. She just stared at me as if amazed that that would be true, but with a look that said that she knew that it is (her kids have all gone to Catholic schools, so she is familiar with things Catholic). I think that we really have "kept" more... Perhaps someone else has a comment on this.

Blessings,
Hadassah

[Ariel]

Rob,

Re. the Assumption, see this:
http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies ... nto_heaven

[Cherie]

Hi everyone! My Messianic Jewish friend hates the RCC. Full stop! She believes that because of the RCC all christians have been lied to + led astray. The Greek name Jesus comes from the pagan god zeus. My trying to defend our faith falls on deaf ears! I've given up! We are still good friends, but we don't talk about the RCC. I could never join another denomination. I really LOVE our Church. I really LOVE Jesus/Yeshua. But if one is a Catholic, a lot of non-Catholics just can't get it into their heads that CATHOLICS DO LOVE JESUS/YESHUA THE MESSIAH!!! God Bless! Cherie

[Ariel]

yes Cherie, it's sad, but I know many Messianic Jews who think like that, and it seems nearly impossible to get through to them. Did you direct your friend to our website?

[Hadassah]

Dear Cherie,

I really don't know why the Greek transliteration of Yeshua is SUCH an issue for your friend. There is nothing pagan about "Jesus", regardless of any theories, speculations, and even books to the contrary. Does your friend find perhaps it difficult to acknowledge that the same name can have different spellings and pronunciations in different languages? Alphabets (or alephbets) differ. Perhaps she is not conceding that most of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek? I understand that some people might claim this, but most biblical scholars do not agree. It would be interesting to look at the original Greek of, for example, St. Paul's Letter to the Philipians. It would follow logically that a letter to people in this region, even the Jews there who embraced Christianity, would have been written in Greek. So Paul writes, "Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philipians 2:9-11) Did he write the letter in Greek, writing "Yeshua" in Hebrew instead of Iota-Eta-Sigma-Omicron-Upsilon-Sigma (or similar) in Greek letters? Seems unlikely. If Paul, clearly a good Jew, used the Greek name, would it be ok with your friend? It's simply a matter of difference in language, not anything to do with the pagan God Zeus!

Of course we love Our Lord and Savior, however we pronounce his name! Anyone who denies that doesn't know who we are. It seems from your messages that you have tried valiantly to convey what the Church holds and teaches and I admire that immensely. For some reason, Catholics are often caricatured and misrepresented. It makes sense now that you would pull back from conversation about the Church, and I understand your frustration. But perhaps you might not want to "give up" entirely. Pray for the Lord to let you know what He wants for you to do in this situation and let Him guide you. He might still have a mission for you :-). He always provides for us in such situations, even when we feel inadequate and frustrated.

God bless,
Hadassah

[Fidesetratio]

[quote="Cherie"]The Greek name Jesus comes from the pagan god zeus.
/quote]

Hello Cherie,

Here is a link that may help with how "Yeshua" became "Jesus".
http://jesusisajew.org/YESHUA.php

Hope that may help - all we really can do is plant the seeds & pray and hope the Holy Spirit does the watering!
Peace,
Rob

[Ariel]

The idea that the name "Jesus" comes from Zeus is total baloney.

As the linked article says, Yeshua simply is "Iesous" in Greek (and in the NT) and from there it was passed on to Latin/European languages.

[Cherie]

Thanks Guys! I will read the link for more 'ammunition'. My friend is a very tough lady + is a Rabbi on top of it. But there are many non Catholics who believe that our Faith has its roots in paganism. I once got into an 'argument' with a gentleman who works with Jack Chick - the one who publishes all those anti Catholic comics. I also have a problem with some of the Marian devotions. Some of the titles which Catholics bestow upon her are also dodgy? I never take part in any processions involving a statue of Mary, because I feel very uncomfortable. Some will ask why I don't become an Anglican? The answer is - it's not my Church. I'm a Roman Catholic. I ask the Mother of our Saviour to pray for me, and will pray the rosary(sitting not kneeling). Am I a 'funny' Catholic guys? Be honest please!

[Ariel]

hi Cherie,

I thought the linked article is very wordy but does not say much. Basically the simple answer is what I have said in my last post: Jesus just comes from the Greek form Iesous in the New Testament. Call him Yeshua if you like - that is his original name. But I personally think there are more important battle to fight.

To avoid unbalanced Marian devotion I would just study what the Church teaches about Mary. Good faith formation is the key, beginning with the Catechism and also reading some good books on Mary. For the biblical background, see Hahn's "Hail Holy Queen" (easy) or (denser) Manelli's 'All Generations will Call Me Blessed'. See what books Catholic Answers has (www.catholic.com).

Fulton Sheen's 'The World's First Love' is beautiful - less apologetics/biblical and more philosophy/theology.

[Hadassah]

Call him Yeshua if you like - that is his original name. But I personally think there are more important battles to fight.

Amen ~ my thoughts exactly. It's hard to tell what she's implying. She may not agree with a host of other Catholic beliefs and practices, but what is the importance of this name issue? Is she somehow implying that we have a skewed, somehow pagan, view of Our Lord and Savior, Redeemer, and Messiah because we have adapted his name from the original Hebrew? I gently challenge her to find anything in actual Catholic teaching (not fabricated or imagined teaching) which offends her view of who Jesus actually is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is readily available.

Cherie, what do you mean when you say that some Marian titles are "dodgy"?

Blessings,
Hadassah

[Cherie]

Hi once again guys! I have sorted out Jesus/Yeshua with my friend now. Both names in my opinion are sacred. Dodgy titles given to Mary are co-redeemer,mediatrix,advocate + spouse of the Holy Spirit. There are others I have seen, but I can't remember off hand. I just know that these titles lead non-catholics to believe that catholics do worship Mary! Mother of God + Theotokos (God-Bearer) I understand + know how to explain them. However, some catholics do go overboard. I've seen people praying their rosaries during Mass, or getting up to light candles. I believe that Mary was/and is a very special Lady! I believe that the catholic concept of the communion of saints is correct. Pope JP2 even said 'Jesus 1st + then Mary'. Many catholics are closer to Mary than they are to her Son. That is my 'gripe'. God bless! Cherie.

[Hadassah]

Hi Cherie,

Glad you worked the Yeshua/Jesus issue out :-).

Dodgy titles given to Mary are co-redeemer,mediatrix,advocate + spouse of the Holy Spirit.

I would be hesitant about calling some of those titles "dodgy" Although I am not sure what dodgy means, I assume that you mean inappropriate or at least suspect. Let's separate out co-redemptrix from the rest. I happen to agree that, no matter what the theological explanation, it is not helpful (in many ways) to describe Mary as "co-redeemer" with Jesus who is God Himself. If the Church proclaims the doctrine I am on board, because I trust the Church. At present, however, I am of the mindset that it might simply lead to misunderstanding and confusion. But the rest of the titles we do see defined, and appropriate, and are not a matter of Catholics going too far. See Catechism of the Catholic Church 969, 970, for example.

Blessings and Good Wishes,
Hadassah

[Glory71]

Hello to all. I have just registered. It is wonderful and I am elated to have seen your forum.

To answer the topic at hand, I have to go back right from the beginning. The key to understanding everything about God is be like a little child - trusting, loving, and obeying. Loving a perfect God with perfect obedience and perfect love. As a father to my 3 children, I came to this realization. In a family, we are dependent to our parents (as we grow and mature in our lives) and co-dependent with our brothers and sisters.

Surprisingly, seeing God with the eyes of a child, reading the bible became easy to understand. I began to realize that the Holy Bible actually speaks or tells of a story of a family (ever wondered why the Holy Bible is littered with stories and parables about a father and his children?). It is a blueprint of our past, present, and future and who God is in relation to us. It speaks of our God wanting to have a BIG family...us. He started creating a stable environment that would support life, especially His precious children thus He created earth and everything around it. Then there is the story of our fall. All these can be found in the book of Genesis.

Rather than abandon His children, as a loving Father, God decided to save us. Work with us and make us whole again. Thus the story goes on as reflected in the succeeding books in the Old Testament with the promise of a Savior proclaimed by the prophets.

When Christ came, not only did He shared in our humanness but also He shared to us His divine Son ship. He even taught us how to pray to His Father...The Our Father prayer. Again everything is about a family.

It is important for us to understand about this family so that we can better understand everyone's role (including the saints and mama mary) in the entire salvation history AND about the family of God revealed to us by Christ.

First about Mother Mary.

Without her, the salvation of mankind cannot happen. Same is true as without the prophets, mankind will not be waiting for anything or anyone to give them hope - The Messiah.

God, in His infinite wisdom uses instruments to bring about salvation to the world. 1st was His 10 commandments written in stone. It was placed in an ark and was then brought to the heart of the Jewish nation. To be clear, inside this ark was the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD. Same is true with mama mary. Inside mama mary's womb (ark) was the LIVING WORD OF GOD - His only begotten Son.

Moreover, nothing impure can hold THE LIVING WORD OF GOD for Christ is God. So in a single act of pure love to all humanity, to fulfill His promise of salvation to us, God made mama mary immaculate (conceived without sin). Mama Mary was in the same state as that of adam and eve before the fall - sinless. This is what the Angel Gabriel meant when he said - "Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE!" - gospel according to Luke.

Lastly, on the cross Christ said looking at His mother "woman, behold your son" and after that He then looked at His disciples and said "behold your mother". Christ who is God is now giving us this precious wonderful gift. His own earthly mother. As God used mama mary to bring His Son to the world so is He using His own mother to bring the world closer to Him. And who can better do this; to bring the world closer to God than His own mother who is intimate with Him right from the beginning. Who knows Him far better than any known mortal. She played her role as God commanded, obedient to Him to the very end.

What I have said is not to be confused with something else. Mama Mary IS Mama Mary. And Christ IS God who alone is the Lamb of God that redeemed the debt of the world. The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the Redeemer". The prefix "co" comes from the Latin term "c u m" which means "with" and not "equal to." Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture. Oh how I praise God for giving us His own earthly mother. Glory! Glory! Praise be Your Name oh Holy God.

Now about the saints.

Christ said it Himself "I am the way, the truth, and the life”. Christ revealed this truth to us...who God is in relation to us. In the Old testament, God was a father of a nation – Israel. In the New Testament, through His own Son, God became the Father of the gentiles too demanding nothing less but perfection from everyone who listens and to act on it.

Also, Christ did not just re-opened the doors of this divine kinship with Him (this door was closed after the fall – and if Salvation did not come, we were all doomed to die), He has shown us the way AND how to do it by following Him without ceasing. And those who followed Him, some of them are elevated by the Church to sainthood...to be our 'idols' for everyone to see. In lay mans term - like heroes in a military sense or the american idol winner...lol. Like Pope John Paul II, Mother Theresa, Saint Paul, etc. as a visible reminder of how we ought to live our lives if we truly want to follow Christ. Every generation have a saint for those who have eyes to see. People don't need miracles to see God's grace. All they have to do is to look at lives of these people. It actually is so simple to really see this...yet due to our bondage to sin...is quite hard to do. Thus the Holy Spirit works with us.

Some people may confuse this 'using' saints to go to heaven or worst, as a form of worship. No! To worship saints is fallacy. An error that can cause someone’s salvation. Catholics used saints as models. In my case I look at Pope John Paul II as my visible guide towards my own salvation. Comparing his acts to mine…I know right now…I still have a looong way to go…LOL. This is a man completely intimate with Christ.

As I participate in God’s fatherhood (as I am a father myself) and in God’s family (as His adopted son), I am more than willing to kneel down and pray for my lost brothers and sisters. I ask for prayers too from the saints and mama mary herself. I know this is pleasing to God as I myself am pleased when I see my children help each other. Oh how I love this sight.

To end let me just profess this:

I love God so much! So much! My heart is burning to know Him more each day. Like a loving child to a loving parent. I know I do not deserve His love for my sins ARE great. And yet I feel Him. Loving me. I see how He truly blessed my life. Not of the material things but I mean...from my earthly parents, my beautiful loving wife, three wonderful obedient children...I mean I see it! There is nothing I could ask that is better than this. And I love Him even more because I see this. I am so so x infinity grateful to Him because of what He has given me. I love you Lord with everything I am.

I strive to please Him each day. To follow Him without ceasing. So that one day, through His grace coupled with my works, I'll worship Him, serve Him for all eternity.

This may sound crazy to some...I see God two ways. He is Holy, He is mighty, He is all powerful, He is all knowing, He is ever present, He is Glorious that deserves nothing else from us but our perfect obedience and perfect love. I worship Him each day and give Him Glory every single second of my life. Yet I also see Him also as a humble, loving parent having all these emotions (we were created in His image and LIKENESS)...like being upset with us because we don't know Him, Someone that I fear when angry (just like the way I fear my earthly father when he is angry - when I was still a child).

With all this, I have come to fully appreciate my Catholic background. I approach God as both my GOD and my Parent at the same time.

[mikemac]

Very nice post Glory71. I comfort in the fact that Jesus gave Mary to us as our Mother too.

Rob,

Re. the Assumption, see this:
http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies ... nto_heaven

This is a very good web site. With lots of Biblical reference it shows how Catholics should consider Mary. I especially like how it calls Mary the Arc of the Covenant (the Arc of the Word, Jesus Christ).

While praying the Holy Rosary we are to meditate on the Mysteries. The 4th Glorious Mystery is the 'Assumption of the Blessed Mary'. The 5th Glorious Mystery is 'Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth'.

I don't know how anyone could think that it is anybody but Mary that is the "woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" in Apocalypse 12.

When Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950 made the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary a feast day to be celebrated on August 15, as a Holy Day of Obligation it wasn't as if the Catholic Church had just recognized the Assumption then. It had been understood by the Catholic Church for centuries that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

In Mary's Canticle, Luke 1:46-55 Mary says "for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

I love referring to Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth. There is no human being that has played a more important role than Mary in God's plan. Mary is not the queen of heaven that the Old Testament refers to.

Regarding the statues and veneration of Mary I don't think there needs to be any more said. Hadassah and others as well as the web site that Ariel posted have basically covered that.

Seeing Messianic Judaism is preparing for the building of the third temple like the Christian Zionists are, then they are both in error.

I say they are both in error because both Apocalypse 3:12 and Apocalypse 21:2 tells us that the new Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God with the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Personally I don't believe we need to think of ways "we can change the Church for the better."

To the contrary I think both Messianic Jews and Christian Zionists should just read the Bible.

Maybe there should be another choice added to the poll, "Reading the Bible". For that reason I have chosen "Other".

Mike

[miryam]

Hi all,
I just wanted to give my small contribution regarding the veneration of statues, processions and such.
Even though I know that statues are symbols and that Catholics do not adore statues but they adore Who the statue represents, nevertheless, it is rather disturbing seeing lots and lots of people kissing the doll baby Jesus at Christmas or kissing the statue of st Anthony from Padua, or I don't know who other. I don't see how a statue or an image could possibly help a more intimate relationship with G-d, Jesus Himself said that whoever sees Him (and not the statue of...) sees the Father. Personally, the only realistic image that can really help worship is the Shroud.
Shalom miryam

[Gerat Tzedek]

There is something missing from the poll.

Yes its kind of an all of the above, but something else needs to be acknowledged. It has to do with why a Jew who is a Christian chooses to be Messianic in the first place instead of being simply part of a protestant church. After all, most protestant churches are similarly down on statues and veneration of Mary and all that. But Messianic Jews similarly refuse to be a part of Protestant Churches. Why?

Because they refuse to be a part of any community which is not going to place their Jewish identity FIRST. In Messianic Judaism, the emphasis is on the Judaism. It is not without its obvious problems (the presence of scads of gentiles being the most obvious). But the liturgy is Jewish liturgy. The holy year is the Jewish holy year. The rites are those of Judaism.

What I'm trying to say is that even if all the statues and crosses and Marianism suddenly vanished from the Catholic Church, Messianic Jews would still not convert to Catholicism. Why? BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GENTILE.

[Ariel]

[Messianic Jewish] liturgy is Jewish liturgy. The holy year is the Jewish holy year. The rites are those of Judaism.

Messianic Jewish liturgy is Jewish liturgy? I would strongly disagree. In Israel anyway, I know of exactly one Messianic congregation that takes Jewish liturgy seriously. All the others are more evangelical Christian than Jewish.

I used to say similar things Gerat Zedek, that the Catholic Church is gentile, but I left the Messianic Jewish communities and joined the Catholic Church because in its theology and worship Catholicism is much closer to traditional Judaism than is Messianic Judaism (though there is still a lot of work to do, granted).

See my testimony for the reasons why I moved from Messianic Judaism to Catholicism.

Ariel

[mikemac]

Yeah Gerat the Catholic Church is both Hebrew and Gentile, hence the name. Catholic means universal in Greek.

[Athol]

Well I can only speak for myself someone who is Jewish and Catholic. I have no problems with stroking the statues of Mary and the saints and kissing my hand (or kissing the crucifix on Good friday and the baby Jesus statue on Christmas). afterall I have no problem with stroking and kissing the mezuzuah on doorways and touching and kissing my hands after touching the cover on the Torah scroll or kissing the Kotel and stroking it. The Bible forbids us to make images of false gods (i.e idols) and to bow down and worship them. Holy images are a different matter such as the cherubim in the Temple, the 12 Oxen in the Temple and even the Nehushtan. Alot of times it is just one's cultural prejudices. the devotional practices of Northern Europeans seem somewhat cold to southerners and southern European devotions seems overly sentimental and glitzy to Northerners etc I love to venerate the tombs and relics of the Catholic saints just as I love to venerate the tombs and relics of the Jewish saints and rebbes.
All this veneration finds its ultimate source in God alone. Archeologists have found ancient synagoges full of biblical images and many Passover haggadas have wonderful images in them.