Are passover Seders sinful

[Athol]

see this blog

http://aronbengilad.blogspot.com

or

http://aronbengilad.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... inful.html

[Hadassah]

Hi Athol,

I voted with you :-). And I did read your external blog post. No particular issues except one. It doesn't have to be true that people who think that Passover seders are sinful are anti-Semitic and blinded by prejudice. They may be. But they may also simply have an ill-formed or incomplete understanding.

Hadassah

[Athol]

Yes you are right. They tend to get sucked into the arguments of the anti-Jewish segments and think this is the teaching of the church when it isnt.

Cheers Athol

[Hadassah]

Are there really many anti-Jewish segments in the Church?

[Ariel]

oh gosh, who even started this poll? The choices are a bit silly. Passover - sinful??? Didn't God come up with the idea?

[Athol]

Unfortunately there are many anti-jewish Catholics who are pushing their agendas especially certain Catholic apologists such as Robert Sugenis.

As for the poll i posted it in response to those traditionalists who are saying that it is a mortal sin for Catholics to participate in Passover Seders. You will find one of the homilies on http://audiosancto.org

Cheers Athol

[Hadassah]

I just caught a glimpse of Ariel's comment. I didn't do it :-).

And I probably didn't vote "good" for the same reason that Athol voted "good" (who knows), but we'll leave that alone...

However, I think it's actually an interesting question. Maybe overdone, eh, because it seems to go back to that long volley we had over following the mitzvot. The question really is (if you're a Catholic, Jewish or otherwise), why do you celebrate Passover? It seems to me to boil down to purpose and disposition. Some may approach it with the right perspective, some may not.

I can't imagine a Christian who would celebrate a Passover Seder as if the Messiah had not yet come. That would indicate a very confused Christian. Then again, it is sometimes easy to take part in something without really understanding the implications of the action.

I know a priest who is not a fan of holding seders in Catholic parishes, though he certainly wouldn't say it is a sin to participate in one. For one thing, he objects to leaving the cup/chair open for Elijah. His comment, "He has come and he was John the Baptist, so what does the open chair signify?" Some will redefine this as a chair anticipating the second coming of Christ. Some won't have the empty chair. Some will have it and not think about it. In any case, it seems to me that it's important for Christians to look at all aspects of the seder celebration and make sure that they know what they're doing and why.

It is interesting that the person doing that talk on "audiosancto.org" had an issue with one of the purposes of the Passover (as taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia, he said) being to "hand on Judaism." I am extremely tired and just listened to it, so perhaps my comprehension is skewed. Can he mean that handing on the story of the Passover and Exodus would contribute to mortal sin? How strange...

In Christ,
Hadassah

p.s., I have sort of had it with the voting thing since last week :-(.

[Athol]

Actually Catholic tradition teaches that the real Elijah and Enoch will come back before the Second Coming so the place of Elijah in the Seder is still appropriate.

I personally do not celebrate christianised Seders but the traditional Seder but as a Catholic Jew see the deep Messianic, Marian and Eucharistic significances in it. For me celebrating the traditional Seder has a greater witness to the Eucharist and to the fulfillment in the New covenant. Others disagree with me and prefer chrisitianised Seders (by that i mean they add to or change the words of the traditional Seder).

Many Catholic jews attend Seders run by orthodox jews especially those who are secret Catholics. Eventhough the orthodox Jews celebrating these Seders are doing it as if the messiah had not come, the Catholic Jews present keep it with a New Covenant heart intention. We know that St Edith Stein attended the Synagogue and the high Holidays with her mother after her entry into the Church- I am sure she did this out of family solidarity and with a New covenant intention.

Cheers Athol

[Hadassah]

Actually Catholic tradition teaches that the real Elijah and Enoch will come back before the Second Coming so the place of Elijah in the Seder is still appropriate.

Well, perhaps some Fathers mention this, but I don't think you can say that "Catholic tradition teaches that" this will happen. It is a speculative notion.

And just help my understanding... Why are people "secret Catholics"? And why would someone attend a seder holding a secret inward intention when the majority of the other participants (and the expressed intention of the entire event) attest to a fundamentally opposing belief?

[Athol]

No it is not a speculative notion it is consistently taught by many of the Fathers as well as many other saints such as Thomas Aquinas and also found in the mystics such as St matilda and Blessed Anne emmerich among others. It is also discussed as a sign of the Second Coming by most Catholic authorities before Vatican II. I would say it definitely is a strong Catholic tradition almost being a Catholic doctrine (some believe it is a doctrine).

Hadassah I am finding myself being very irritated by your questions about secret Jews- i am wondering why that is so. I realise it is because i see how far Gentile catholics are at understanding the realities of being both Jewish and Catholic. to be honest i am rather tired of this Gentile insensitivity and lack of imagination and feeling for the position of many Jews. Imagine hadassah the position of someone who comes to Catholic belief in the orthodox Jewish community- in order to become a Catholic you would have to abandon your marriage, your children, your family,your community and every thing else you hold dear- you would have to risk being persecuted, jobless and rejected. You would be responsible for causing your parents, spouse, children, family intense sorrow and agony that you are abandoning them and the Jewish people . Now can you see why there are secret catholics in the Jewish community? Then those that do openly embrace the Church are met with suspicion, narrowness and anti-Jewish prejudice and an intolerance towards any manifestation of Jewish belief or custom by their fellow Catholics.

Why would we want to celebrate the passover with our Jewish brothers, sisters, parents, family, friends who all came out of Egypt with us? i think the answer is obvious. I certainly completely reject your statement that their celebration is somehow opposed to mine.

[Hadassah]

I would say it definitely is a strong Catholic tradition almost being a Catholic doctrine (some believe it is a doctrine)."

I disagree. We can leave it at that...

Hadassah I am finding myself being very irritated by your questions about secret Jews- i am wondering why that is so. I realise it is because i see how far Gentile catholics are at understanding the realities of being both Jewish and Catholic. to be honest i am rather tired of this Gentile insensitivity and lack of imagination and feeling for the position of many Jews.

Sad, heavy sigh...

Why would you be irritated at that? Athol, I asked for you to "help my understanding". It's honestly somewhat frustrating for me that you would imply that I demonstrate a deliberate and malicious lack of sensitivity. Perhaps it is an inadvertant insensitivity, as I have no direct experience of a situation or culture that would prohibit someone from embracing the Catholic belief. I wanted to hear what situation you might be thinking of. And quite frankly, I expected you to tell me of cultures in which the power in control (religious or political) might threaten the life of someone who had embraced Christianity, not in which fear of losing one's own family might threaten their practice of the faith. That did not even enter my mind, but not because I have a disdain for people in this situation. Why would I even spend my time asking questions and trying to understand these issues if I were insensitive and uncaring? Do you assume that all Gentiles tend toward the anti-Jewish? It is not the case. I understand that tone does not come always across well in the written word. However, I would ask kindly that you assume benign intentions on my part as that certainly is the case.

Having said that, I humbly apologize for offending you, even unintentionally.

I do imagine myself proclaiming Christ boldly in all situations. Perhaps this is unrealistic, as I have never been confronted with a seriously uncomfortable situation which prohibited me from doing so. But I pray that I would. As you know, there are several places in Scripture where Christ indicates that our relationship with Him supercedes even our family relationships and he warns us that, at times, this may mean a disruption of the peace even between father and son, mother and daughter, etc. A horrible and painful situation, no doubt, but would you disagree that this is the ideal to which we are called?

I certainly completely reject your statement that their celebration is somehow opposed to mine.

I don't mean opposed in all aspects. But there is a fundamental belief which you described which would be at opposition, would you not agree? I do believe strongly that we profess our belief by our actions and that this includes even our presence at particular events. And so I envsioned a situation in which a person outwardly seems to celebrate as if the Messiah had not come, but inwardly holds an opposing belief. Perhaps that is not what you intended to describe, but I did not understand why that would be the case.

Again, in the love of Christ...
Hadassah

[Athol]

Dear Haddasah,

it is not primarily what you asked but a series of frustrations about the attitudes of certain Catholics. I am afraid I cannot be passionless in my discussion of this topic. Do you really think that it is right for a husband and wife to destroy their marriage and to scar their children for life by destroying an otherwise loving marriage? is it right to leave young children without one of their parents? The Church obviously doesn't as it allows certain Catholics such as Catholic Jews to be secretly Catholic and to be dispensed from Sunday Mass and to attend at another time in the week in secrecy with the permission of the Bishop. It may sound all heroic to come out and announce one is a Catholic when in fact the harder path would be to be a living Via Dolorosa and to remain secret for the sake of love. If one is single it may be alright to play the martyr but for married people it is something different. there are worst fates than dying.

As for your Passover comments I will answer them at another time.

Cheers Athol

[Athol]

Dear Hadassah,


I guess i may have had another knee jerk reaction to your comments. How can I expect you to understand if you have never been in this situation- it is probably unfair of me. i don't know if you are aware but very many hebrew Catholics have never told their family or Jewish friends about becoming a Catholic even many here in the USA. Most of those in Israel have not only not told family and friends but they never let anyone at their place of employment know. it is a real situation of being in the secret and underground Church. i don't only mean those in the Orthodox Jewish community but even those in the secular Israeli community.

Cheers athol

[Hadassah]

Dearest Athol,

Of course... I think that it would be horrible to be a married Jewish woman, to come to belief in Christ, and to have my entire world potentially turned upside down if I professed that belief. I do understand in part, but I have been struggling to really grasp the complete rejection on the Jewish side.

I should tell you that, while it may not be entirely comparable, this happens among Protestants and Catholics too. There is a Protestant man here in my parish who decided to become Catholic and his wife did nothing but cry about it at first. Granted, the Protestant culture may not reject them entirely, but some will. And another woman who, when she decided to leave her Lutheran congregation, told friends about it. They were unphased at first that she might move to another Protestant denomination (even one vastly different from her conservative and very, as she calls it, "Catholic-like" congregation). When asked with a smile where she was going, she said of course, "The Catholic Church". Smiles disappeared and they asked, "Why on earth would you do that?"

The Church obviously doesn't as it allows certain Catholics such as Catholic Jews to be secretly Catholic and to be dispensed from Sunday Mass and to attend at another time in the week in secrecy with the permission of the Bishop.

I had not heard that some bishops allow the practice of the faith in secret here in the US. I am a bit surprised, though it is certainly a situation where one would want to be very sensitive and loving. But officially, the Church does also make allowance for the case in which baptism and accepting the faith causes a rift between husband and wife, based on the fact that our relationship with Christ is primary and salvific. You probably know that this is called the Pauline Privilege. This privilege is only applied where the two parties are not baptized and the person's spouse refused to remain married to him or her after he or she received baptism. Based on 1 Corinthians 7:12-16, it allows the Catholic to remarry. Even St. Paul dealt with this situation and had explicit instructions about it.

I might raise this one last thing, which had been on my mind to bring up. I watched, "One Night With the King" the other night, a movie recounting the story of Esther. I began to think about Esther's keeping the fact that she was a Jewess a secret. I had never thought about it really, but wondered what feelings might be engendered in Jews when a Jewish person might keep their Judaism a secret.

God bless,
Hadassah

[Athol]

Dear Hadassah,

It is even more than when a protestant becomes a Catholic- a Jew not only loses his religious friends but he in a sense loses his culture and then is forced to become part of another culture which can be wonderful but never fulfills that part of us that is jewish and that longs for jewishness. not sure if I have explained that very well.

cheers Athol

[Hadassah]

Yes, I understand somewhat...

I remember reading something, I think by Abraham Joshua Heschel:

"The gravest sin for a Jew is to forget what he represents."

Would you agree with that? Is that something you could expand on a bit, in whatever way you think appropriate?

Hadassah

[Ariel]

Ok, my two bits here in response to your exchange…

I can understand both your positions. I agree with Athol that Hadassah’s questions can seem a bit insensitive, however I’m also sure that she did not intend them to be. As Athol said, many Catholics still display rather arrogant attitudes regarding this subject, so perhaps Athol you have gone on the defensive a little quickly in this case where the questions were not ill-intended. Also most Catholics really don’t have a clue about these issues (neither do they understand how hard these are for Jews and for Jewish Christians), and so let’s try to extend them the extra grace and patience to freely ask questions, not assuming that there is a polemical intent or bad will until this is proven.

I know how difficult and emotional these subjects can be, so I don't expect things to always be all smiles. After all, we're trying to do a modest contribution to bridging a 1,900 year old enmity between two faiths, and this will surely have a few bumps on the road.

Now, just a few words about some specific points:

Why would someone attend a seder holding a secret inward intention when the majority of the other participants (and the expressed intention of the entire event) attest to a fundamentally opposing belief?

…I envisioned a situation in which a person outwardly seems to celebrate [the Passover] as if the Messiah had not come, but inwardly holds an opposing belief.

The main reason for the Passover is not to prepare for the coming of Christ but to celebrate the remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt. Why would the coming of the Messiah change that? It’s true that the Passover also prefigures the New Covenant, of course, but that is far from being its only role.

When I celebrate Passover, I don’t see it at all as a celebration that “attests to a fundamentally opposing belief.” Yes, it saddens me that most Jews I know don’t accept Christ. But then I try to never lose perspective as to WHY they reject Him, and I remember the anti-Judaic theology of the Church Fathers, anti-Jewish legislation passed by “Christian” nations, anti-Semitic propaganda and violence directed against Jews by Christians for centuries (the details of which it would be pointless to list here), accusations of them being “Christ killers,” the apathetic reactions of the Christian world to the Holocaust, and continued Christian preaching still saying today that Christ has rendered the Torah and everything the Jews hold dear obsolete (things that, as we recall, they received from God). Ok, there are many nuances to be made in all those points, but essentially this is how they perceive Christianity. So for me to celebrate Passover is not only tremendously enriching for my own faith, I also consider it to be an “evangelistic” action on my part, even if I don’t say a word about Christ. What do you think will make Jews more curious to know more about Jesus and be drawn to Him – to sourly underline that all that Jewish stuff has been “fulfilled” and rendered obsolete, or to joyfully celebrate the Exodus from Egypt with them as a Christian?

I do imagine myself proclaiming Christ boldly in all situations…

this is great and praiseworthy, but your situation is very, very different from that of a Jew who may have secretly accepted the Catholic faith and still has a great love for his/her Jewish heritage and does not want to sever these links – for the national bond between God and Israel still stands, as we recall.

[Hadassah]

Hello Ariel,

Also most Catholics really don’t have a clue about these issues...

LOL! Don't get me wrong, it's a good-natured sort of laugh! So my choice is to be either insensitive or clueless. OK, I am resigned. I think I'd choose clueless over insensitive any day :-).

The main reason for the Passover is not to prepare for the coming of Christ but to celebrate the remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt. Why would the coming of the Messiah change that? [...] When I celebrate Passover, I don’t see it at all as a celebration that “attests to a fundamentally opposing belief.”

I have actually been to Passover Seders, with Jewish and Messianic congregations as well as in Catholic parishes. So I do know a bit about the reason for the celebration and the meaning. The two quotes you cite were reactions to Athol's comments. He noted, "Many Catholic jews attend Seders run by orthodox jews especially those who are secret Catholics. Even though the orthodox Jews celebrating these Seders are doing it as if the messiah had not come, the Catholic Jews present keep it with a New Covenant heart intention." As I said before, I don't think I understood the second sentence as he intended it and envisioned a situation in which belief and action were opposed.

What do you think will make Jews more curious to know more about Jesus and be drawn to Him – to sourly underline that all that Jewish stuff has been “fulfilled” and rendered obsolete, or to joyfully celebrate the Exodus from Egypt with them as a Christian?

Well, I hope that I don't sourly do anything. Most certainly I hope that I would not sourly, or in any other fashion, deny the significance of the Exodus for either Jews or Christians.

your situation is very, very different from that of a Jew who may have secretly accepted the Catholic faith and still has a great love for his/her Jewish heritage and does not want to sever these links – for the national bond between God and Israel still stands, as we recall.

I would admit that my situation is very different. And I have to admit that I am stuggling with the situation of a "secret Catholic". On one hand, I see the tension, the gravity, and potential loss that you and Athol both describe. I recognize, at least in some part, how painful that would be. I do not wish to minimize in any way the difficulty of such a situation.

On the other hand, I am constantly reminded of our call to follow and proclaim Christ boldly despite great difficulty and, I think, even with the understanding that the national bond between God and Israel still stands. Interestingly, I opened the Catechism on Sunday to read about the theological virtues and was confronted with paragraph 1816). So this is something I need to ponder more deeply...

Thanks for your comments, Ariel! I appreciate the feedback and will truly try to be more mindful of what I write and how it might be interpreted. As always, anything that you can offer which helps deepen our understanding and appreciation of the issue is welcome.

God bless,
Hadassah

[Ariel]

no problem Hadassah, tough questions are ok too. We learn to have a tough skin in Israel!

[Hammer]

I am sorry to inform you Athol that you are 100% wrong. The infallible Council of Florence has spoken and the First Vatican Council defined the duty of Catholics to obey ALL Catholic teaching.

First Vatican Council: “§1792 Further, by divine and Catholic faith, ALL those things must be believed at which are contained in the written Word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the church, either in a solemn pronouncement [ex cathedra extra ordinary Magisterium ], or in her ordinary and universal teaching power [a.v., “what has always been taught,” ordinary Magisterium ], to be believed as a divinely revealed.” Vatican Council, Session III Dogmatic Constitution Concerning the Catholic Faith (April 24, 1870) in Denziger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, §1792

Council of Florence: Ҥ 712 It [the Holy Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to Divine worship at that time, after our Lord's coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the Sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors....

“§714 The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,' (Matthew 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” ---Cantate Domino, from the infallible ecumenical Council of Florence under His Holiness Pope Eugene IV defining the Solemn Doctrine: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, promulgated by papal bull, February 4, 1444 [Florentine calendar] in Denziger Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, § 712-714

Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom.”

[Fidesetratio]

I am sorry to inform you Athol that you are 100% wrong. The infallible Council of Florence has spoken and the First Vatican Council defined the duty of Catholics to obey ALL Catholic teaching.

Please excuse my ignorance here....Ive read this thread a few times now & probably missing something so obvious - but im not sure as to where Athol is 100% wrong???

Can someone enlighten me please? Curious minds....

Peace,
Rob

[Ariel]

An important note regarding Hammer's note above:

I have banned ''Hammer" from the forum because he was just here to cause trouble and did not show any signs of being open to a respectful discussion. However I have not deleted his post above, because these are things that have in fact been decreed by Church councils, and a serious discussion about observance of Jewish customs within the Catholic Church cannot ignore what was said in the past - even if we don't like it.

The Church has already clarified her teaching on "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus."

As for the harsh prohibition to observe any of the Jewish mitzvot, my simple and short answer would be that this is a disciplinary ruling that may have had its reason in its time (15th century) but as we know disciplines of the Church are not infallible and can certainly change over time. But certainly a deeper discussion on the topic might bring out some new insights.

[Gerat Tzedek]

What do you really expect the reaction to be? For a Jew to become a Catholic, he is essentially becoming part of a community that is going to turn him into a gentile, for all practical purposes.

Come on, I hung out in the Hebrew Catholic forum long enough to know that there was exactly two Jews that made any effort to observe their covenant. There really isn't a Hebrew-Catholic movement of any size or substance. Those that become Catholic are lost to Israel.

[Ariel]

well Gerat Zedek, that is one of the reasons why Catholics for Israel exists: to try to encourage, facilitate, form, and strengthen a community of Jewish Catholics who hold it important to retain their Jewishness by observance of the mitzvoth, without compromising on the Catholic faith.

[Athol]

Ah the Council of Florence again. They love to bring that one up quoting only those things that suit them. One needs to carefully study the Bull that came out of this Council carefully as it is easy to read it wrong by not seeing that everything is stated is in the context of those keeping Jewish rites as a neccessity for salvation or as neccessary for membership in the church. There are many other statements in this Bull that on a superficial reading seem to be contrary to the Catholic teachings of today. This Bull must be interpreted in the light of the whole of Catholic teaching. for example the church is concerned to preserve and protect the teaching that we are saved by Grace alone and thus in order to protect that infallible teaching certain pastoral policy may be applied or recommended for certain times and places. For example the Council of Florence is dealing with those separated brethern such as the Copts of Egypt who have reunited with the Catholic Church. the Gentile copts of that time had made circumcision and some other Jewish observances a requirement for entering the Church and those reuniting with the Catholic church needed to drop those requirements as they could lead people to think that they were necessary for salvation. this was a pastoral policy (which can change) given in order to protect an infallible teaching.