A question about Jerusalem

[savvy]

Hi Ariel,

I would like to know if the Vatican is going to allow Jerusalem to be placed under International control rather than Israeli control?

Why is there so much silence and lack of support for Israel coming from the Vatican. I am a Catholic who supports Israel and is fed up of this.

savvy

[Ariel]

hi savvy,

that's a good question. I agree with you that the Vatican's silence can be frustrating. I would say that it is important that we distinguish when the Church speaks theologically and when she speaks politically.

All of the Church's statements on Jerusalem and the conflict in the Middle East are essentially political, diplomatic, and/or pastoral. The conflict is a hot issue, and the Church must move with great prudence. There are thousands of Christians in the Palestinian territories and in neighboring arab nations who are a very vulnerable minority living alongside an increasingly radicalized muslim majority. (I have just added some articles on the Palest. Christians on the site.) And so any direct, public statement of support for Israel coming from the Vatican could have disastrous repercussions on the lives of these Palestinian Christians. And so the Vatican's positions on Jerusalem are basically diplomatic and based on international law and not theology.

Also, the voice that is mostly heard as the voice of Christians coming from the Holy Land is that of the majority of Palestinian Christians. Most of them have suffered from the conflict, and so they commonly speak a language that is largely swayed by their national allegiance rather than by biblical theology. Their description of the situation, however, is often a far cry from the reality here, but unfortunately, it is this predominant voice that the world (and probably the big shots in the Vatican) hear.

Also, many secretly prefer living under Israeli rule, but they will never say this in public because they might thereby endanger their lives. As one nun in Bethlehem told me last week: "anyone can criticize Israel; it's a democracy with free speech. But if you publicly criticize Islam then you are putting your life on the line." And so even the main Christian leaders here have their hands tied and speak a very politically correct language that is typically very critical of Israel and says very little about Muslim persecution of Christians in the territories.

Theologically, there are many in the Church who see a great prophetic significance in the rebirth of the state of Israel, and many theologians have voiced this opinion (including cardinal Schoenborn and others). However, I doubt whether we can expect any official, magisterial statement of support of the state of Israel for now; first because of the reasons above, and second, because the magisterium acts as a guardian of the deposit of faith, not as a prophet. The prophecies are right there in the Scriptures; perhaps it will be up to the common faithful to make our voice heard? The Church's political and diplomatic positions do not pertain to the deposit of faith, and so any Catholic is free to agree or disagree with them.

Hope that helps,
God bless,
Ariel

[Sepharad]

Hi Ariel,

I would like to know if the Vatican is going to allow Jerusalem to be placed under International control rather than Israeli control?

Why is there so much silence and lack of support for Israel coming from the Vatican. I am a Catholic who supports Israel and is fed up of this.

savvy

I'm not a zionist, I am an Orthodox Jew (the two are not usually the same!) But I do remember reading of what (St) Pope Pius X said to Theodore Herzl, when Herzl approached the Pope to ask if he would support a Jewish state in the Middle East.

Pius X reportedly said to Herzl that the Catholic church would not favor a return of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, because the Jewish people rejected Christ(his words, not mine, sorry!) He furthermore said that if the Jewish people would be willing to consent to baptism, then there would be Catholic priests in the Holy Land waiting to accomodate them.

Here is a Catholic link that discusses it: http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/mag/MAen9901.html and an excerpt from it:

Shortly after the 1897 Basle Conference, the semi-official Vatican periodical (edited by the Jesuits) Civilta Cattolica gave its biblical-theological judgement on political Zionism: "1827 years have passed since the prediction of Jesus of Nazareth was fulfilled ... that [after the destruction of Jerusalem] the Jews would be led away to be slaves among all the nations and that they would remain in the dispersion [diaspora, galut] until the end of the world." The Jews should not be permitted to return to Palestine with sovereignty: "According to the Sacred Scriptures, the Jewish people must always live dispersed and vagabondo [vagrant, wandering] among the other nations, so that they may render witness to Christ not only by the Scriptures ... but by their very existence" (italics mine).


Despite this negative, scornful judgement in Rome, Theodore Herzl hoped for direct papal goodwill and support for the Zionist dream and program. In late January 1904, after the sixth Zionist Congress (August, 1903) and six months before his death (July 3), Herzl travelled to Rome, and crossed the Tiber to the Vatican.

Herzl first met the Secretary of State, Cardinal Merry del Val (Jan. 22). According to Herzl’s private diary notes, the Cardinal replied that "the history of Israel is our own history, it is our foundation. But in order that we should come out for the Jewish people in the way that you desire, they should first have to accept conversion." Three days later Herzl met Pope Pius X (Jan. 25 — a public holiday in Rome celebrating the Conversion of St. Paul!). Again from Herzl’s diary: the Pope replied to Herzl’s outline of the Jewish Return: "We are unable to favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews going to Jerusalem, but we could never sanction it ... The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people."

[Ariel]

yes Sepharad, what you write is essentially correct. Pius X inherited the "traditional" Christian response to Judaism's rejection of Christ which is aptly summarized in the sentence you cite:

"The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people"

However, it's important to note a few points:

1) Pius X's position, though the traditional Christian position for the larger part of the history of the Church, carries no dogmatic weight. Theologically, it is true that it is in a way a great mystery and "problem" that the children of the promise have for the most part rejected their own Messiah. However, this is no surprise as Paul already writes about this in the New Testament and says that through the Jewish rejection of Christ the Gospel came to the Gentiles.

2) Pius' position can no longer be sustained today in the Church, since Nostra Aetate has finally determined, echoing Romans 9-11, that God's election of Israel is irrevocable. As for the place of the land, that has yet to be hammered out in Catholic theology.

[Athol]

Yes Catholic teaching on the Jews has come along way in a short time. What was said in the time of Pius definitely doesn't apply today. Popes can be wrong on politics and their personal opinions. It is only on faith and morals when defined as such in an official way that they are infallible and cannot be changed. In fact I am more encouraged by the Catholic progress than Jewish progress. Catholics seem to be working at eliminating their anti-semitic prejudices but I don't see Judaism doing much about their anti-Christian prejudices. In fact some of the sages of the past such as Rabbi Jacob Emden and Rabbi Nosan of Breslov were more positive towards Christians and Christian nations than most of the Haredi Jews of today. The front of the Likutey moharan on the teachings of Rebbe nachman explicitly states that the Christian Gentile nations are not to be classified as idolaters as mentioned in the Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings- this only refers to the pagan Gentiles of Rome , Greece etc not the Christians. However today I see many Jewish rabbis and others referring to the Christians with the term of idolaters.

[Fidesetratio]

Hello All,

Without starting a new topic, this kind of flows from the opening post....

Our Church is organising a pilgamage to the Holy Land in May 2009 and the organiser said the Pope may be there during that time too. If i can afford the pilgramage i am really looking forward to going.

I hope the holy father stands for Israel too, i hope the UN won't try to divide up Israel anymore, and really concerned if the Vatican backs the idea even if its for "peace".

I have had a slight interest in Eschatology and realise in some Christian circles that some believe that the AnitiChrist will try and take his seat in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (or something to that effect).
Though Catholic teaching hasn't definatively taught on all aspects of end times, I would feel somewhat uncomfortable if the Pope was to back Jerusalem coming under international control (though I dont beleive the pope is / will be the Antichrist. )

I pray that wont happen

Peace,
Rob

[Ariel]

hi Rob,

though there is certainly a lot of troubling things happening in the Church nowadays, we can rest assured that the Lord has promised that the gates of hades will not prevail against the Rock of Peter. In other words, this is a divine promise from the Lord himself that the pope could never be the antichrist.

Also, the pope may have some political opinions concerning Jerusalem and Israel, but these remain precisely that - political opinions. The charism of papal infallibility does not extend to diplomatic or political church policies. So Catholics are free to respectfully disagree with political stances of the Vatican.

Regarding Catholic eschatology, have you read this?
http://www.israelcatholic.com/content/v ... 1/lang,en/

cheers,
Ariel

[Fidesetratio]

Regarding Catholic eschatology, have you read this?
http://www.israelcatholic.com/content/v ... 1/lang,en/

cheers,
Ariel

I have now.....

I thoroughly enjoyed reading that - so much so that i have passed your link on to others. I have read numerous different versions on escatology both Catholic & Protestant - and so far found that what you have written is quite really good & easy to understand.

Have you read about the Great Monarch?
Theres a few versions Ive read floating around - Im not so convinced myself on all the details, but its an interesting take on the end times....

Thanks,
Rob

[Ariel]

I believe Athol is the specialist of the Great Monarch.

Where is Athol anyway? Are you still moderating the forum Athol?

[Athol]

At the moment I do not have the internet at my home address so i can only check in when I am visiting family who are on the internet. also this time of the year is the summer holidays in Australia so not a good time to spend on a computer.

In regards to the Great Monarch I was reading a book about a famous Austrian Catholic mystic who spoke with the souls in Purgatory and they mentioned that the identity and story of the heir to the French monarchy would be revealed soon.

[Fidesetratio]

At the moment I do not have the internet at my home address so i can only check in when I am visiting family who are on the internet. also this time of the year is the summer holidays in Australia so not a good time to spend on a computer.

In regards to the Great Monarch I was reading a book about a famous Austrian Catholic mystic who spoke with the souls in Purgatory and they mentioned that the identity and story of the heir to the French monarchy would be revealed soon.

Do you have a source for the Austrian Catholic Mystic private revelation?
I have recently become interested in the Great Monarch due to reading on it from other Catholic sites. Ive always been interested in Escatology but been careful now not to be carried away with conspiracy theories...been there 5 years ago with the rapture crowd....

http://greatcatholicmonarch.blogspot.com



Heres a link from one of the sites ive visited on the Great Catholic Monarch,

[Athol]

It is a book that is an interview with the mystic called Maria Simma or Simna who died a couple of years ago. the interview was in 2003. the book is called "Get us out of here". I got it from a priest friend of mine. she mentions the revelation of this French heir as part of what melanie of La Salette spoke about. I just lent the book to my cousin to read.

[K.jerome]

Dear All,

International politics and people with vested interest may say so many things but if I have not mistaken during the time when our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was walking here on earth, the holy land consist of three basic areas (1) Galilee(Northern area)-about 1600 square miles (2) Samaria (Middle area)-about 1590 square miles (3) Judea- about 2000 square miles and Jerusalem is part of Israel.

May be some experts in the forum can correct me and enlighten me where I am wrong.

In God we trust.

(K.Jerome)