Are passover Seders sinful

Should Catholic Jews (and Messianic Jews) keep the Torah? How should Catholic Jews relate to rabbinical authority?

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Passover Seders are

sinful for Catholic Jews to attend
0
No votes
sinful for Gentile catholics to attend
0
No votes
good for Catholic Jews only to attend
0
No votes
good for both Gentiles and Jewish Catholics to attend
6
46%
a waste of time for Catholics
1
8%
sinful for both Gentile and Jewish Catholics to attend
6
46%
 
Total votes: 13

Athol
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Are passover Seders sinful

Post by Athol » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:44 am

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Hadassah
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It Does Not Follow...

Post by Hadassah » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:22 pm

Hi Athol,

I voted with you :-). And I did read your external blog post. No particular issues except one. It doesn't have to be true that people who think that Passover seders are sinful are anti-Semitic and blinded by prejudice. They may be. But they may also simply have an ill-formed or incomplete understanding.

Hadassah

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Post by Athol » Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:44 am

Yes you are right. They tend to get sucked into the arguments of the anti-Jewish segments and think this is the teaching of the church when it isnt.

Cheers Athol
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Post by Hadassah » Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:56 pm

Are there really many anti-Jewish segments in the Church?

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Post by Ariel » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:50 pm

oh gosh, who even started this poll? The choices are a bit silly. Passover - sinful??? Didn't God come up with the idea?
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Post by Athol » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:45 pm

Unfortunately there are many anti-jewish Catholics who are pushing their agendas especially certain Catholic apologists such as Robert Sugenis.

As for the poll i posted it in response to those traditionalists who are saying that it is a mortal sin for Catholics to participate in Passover Seders. You will find one of the homilies on http://audiosancto.org

Cheers Athol
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Post by Hadassah » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:30 am

I just caught a glimpse of Ariel's comment. I didn't do it :-).

And I probably didn't vote "good" for the same reason that Athol voted "good" (who knows), but we'll leave that alone...

However, I think it's actually an interesting question. Maybe overdone, eh, because it seems to go back to that long volley we had over following the mitzvot. The question really is (if you're a Catholic, Jewish or otherwise), why do you celebrate Passover? It seems to me to boil down to purpose and disposition. Some may approach it with the right perspective, some may not.

I can't imagine a Christian who would celebrate a Passover Seder as if the Messiah had not yet come. That would indicate a very confused Christian. Then again, it is sometimes easy to take part in something without really understanding the implications of the action.

I know a priest who is not a fan of holding seders in Catholic parishes, though he certainly wouldn't say it is a sin to participate in one. For one thing, he objects to leaving the cup/chair open for Elijah. His comment, "He has come and he was John the Baptist, so what does the open chair signify?" Some will redefine this as a chair anticipating the second coming of Christ. Some won't have the empty chair. Some will have it and not think about it. In any case, it seems to me that it's important for Christians to look at all aspects of the seder celebration and make sure that they know what they're doing and why.

It is interesting that the person doing that talk on "audiosancto.org" had an issue with one of the purposes of the Passover (as taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia, he said) being to "hand on Judaism." I am extremely tired and just listened to it, so perhaps my comprehension is skewed. Can he mean that handing on the story of the Passover and Exodus would contribute to mortal sin? How strange...

In Christ,
Hadassah

p.s., I have sort of had it with the voting thing since last week :-(.

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Post by Athol » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:29 pm

Actually Catholic tradition teaches that the real Elijah and Enoch will come back before the Second Coming so the place of Elijah in the Seder is still appropriate.

I personally do not celebrate christianised Seders but the traditional Seder but as a Catholic Jew see the deep Messianic, Marian and Eucharistic significances in it. For me celebrating the traditional Seder has a greater witness to the Eucharist and to the fulfillment in the New covenant. Others disagree with me and prefer chrisitianised Seders (by that i mean they add to or change the words of the traditional Seder).

Many Catholic jews attend Seders run by orthodox jews especially those who are secret Catholics. Eventhough the orthodox Jews celebrating these Seders are doing it as if the messiah had not come, the Catholic Jews present keep it with a New Covenant heart intention. We know that St Edith Stein attended the Synagogue and the high Holidays with her mother after her entry into the Church- I am sure she did this out of family solidarity and with a New covenant intention.

Cheers Athol
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Post by Hadassah » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:14 am

Athol wrote:Actually Catholic tradition teaches that the real Elijah and Enoch will come back before the Second Coming so the place of Elijah in the Seder is still appropriate.
Well, perhaps some Fathers mention this, but I don't think you can say that "Catholic tradition teaches that" this will happen. It is a speculative notion.

And just help my understanding... Why are people "secret Catholics"? And why would someone attend a seder holding a secret inward intention when the majority of the other participants (and the expressed intention of the entire event) attest to a fundamentally opposing belief?

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Post by Athol » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:45 am

No it is not a speculative notion it is consistently taught by many of the Fathers as well as many other saints such as Thomas Aquinas and also found in the mystics such as St matilda and Blessed Anne emmerich among others. It is also discussed as a sign of the Second Coming by most Catholic authorities before Vatican II. I would say it definitely is a strong Catholic tradition almost being a Catholic doctrine (some believe it is a doctrine).

Hadassah I am finding myself being very irritated by your questions about secret Jews- i am wondering why that is so. I realise it is because i see how far Gentile catholics are at understanding the realities of being both Jewish and Catholic. to be honest i am rather tired of this Gentile insensitivity and lack of imagination and feeling for the position of many Jews. Imagine hadassah the position of someone who comes to Catholic belief in the orthodox Jewish community- in order to become a Catholic you would have to abandon your marriage, your children, your family,your community and every thing else you hold dear- you would have to risk being persecuted, jobless and rejected. You would be responsible for causing your parents, spouse, children, family intense sorrow and agony that you are abandoning them and the Jewish people . Now can you see why there are secret catholics in the Jewish community? Then those that do openly embrace the Church are met with suspicion, narrowness and anti-Jewish prejudice and an intolerance towards any manifestation of Jewish belief or custom by their fellow Catholics.

Why would we want to celebrate the passover with our Jewish brothers, sisters, parents, family, friends who all came out of Egypt with us? i think the answer is obvious. I certainly completely reject your statement that their celebration is somehow opposed to mine.
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Post by Hadassah » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:48 am

Athol wrote:I would say it definitely is a strong Catholic tradition almost being a Catholic doctrine (some believe it is a doctrine)."
I disagree. We can leave it at that...
Hadassah I am finding myself being very irritated by your questions about secret Jews- i am wondering why that is so. I realise it is because i see how far Gentile catholics are at understanding the realities of being both Jewish and Catholic. to be honest i am rather tired of this Gentile insensitivity and lack of imagination and feeling for the position of many Jews.
Sad, heavy sigh...

Why would you be irritated at that? Athol, I asked for you to "help my understanding". It's honestly somewhat frustrating for me that you would imply that I demonstrate a deliberate and malicious lack of sensitivity. Perhaps it is an inadvertant insensitivity, as I have no direct experience of a situation or culture that would prohibit someone from embracing the Catholic belief. I wanted to hear what situation you might be thinking of. And quite frankly, I expected you to tell me of cultures in which the power in control (religious or political) might threaten the life of someone who had embraced Christianity, not in which fear of losing one's own family might threaten their practice of the faith. That did not even enter my mind, but not because I have a disdain for people in this situation. Why would I even spend my time asking questions and trying to understand these issues if I were insensitive and uncaring? Do you assume that all Gentiles tend toward the anti-Jewish? It is not the case. I understand that tone does not come always across well in the written word. However, I would ask kindly that you assume benign intentions on my part as that certainly is the case.

Having said that, I humbly apologize for offending you, even unintentionally.

I do imagine myself proclaiming Christ boldly in all situations. Perhaps this is unrealistic, as I have never been confronted with a seriously uncomfortable situation which prohibited me from doing so. But I pray that I would. As you know, there are several places in Scripture where Christ indicates that our relationship with Him supercedes even our family relationships and he warns us that, at times, this may mean a disruption of the peace even between father and son, mother and daughter, etc. A horrible and painful situation, no doubt, but would you disagree that this is the ideal to which we are called?
I certainly completely reject your statement that their celebration is somehow opposed to mine.
I don't mean opposed in all aspects. But there is a fundamental belief which you described which would be at opposition, would you not agree? I do believe strongly that we profess our belief by our actions and that this includes even our presence at particular events. And so I envsioned a situation in which a person outwardly seems to celebrate as if the Messiah had not come, but inwardly holds an opposing belief. Perhaps that is not what you intended to describe, but I did not understand why that would be the case.

Again, in the love of Christ...
Hadassah

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Post by Athol » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:58 am

Dear Haddasah,

it is not primarily what you asked but a series of frustrations about the attitudes of certain Catholics. I am afraid I cannot be passionless in my discussion of this topic. Do you really think that it is right for a husband and wife to destroy their marriage and to scar their children for life by destroying an otherwise loving marriage? is it right to leave young children without one of their parents? The Church obviously doesn't as it allows certain Catholics such as Catholic Jews to be secretly Catholic and to be dispensed from Sunday Mass and to attend at another time in the week in secrecy with the permission of the Bishop. It may sound all heroic to come out and announce one is a Catholic when in fact the harder path would be to be a living Via Dolorosa and to remain secret for the sake of love. If one is single it may be alright to play the martyr but for married people it is something different. there are worst fates than dying.

As for your Passover comments I will answer them at another time.

Cheers Athol
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Post by Athol » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:09 am

Dear Hadassah,


I guess i may have had another knee jerk reaction to your comments. How can I expect you to understand if you have never been in this situation- it is probably unfair of me. i don't know if you are aware but very many hebrew Catholics have never told their family or Jewish friends about becoming a Catholic even many here in the USA. Most of those in Israel have not only not told family and friends but they never let anyone at their place of employment know. it is a real situation of being in the secret and underground Church. i don't only mean those in the Orthodox Jewish community but even those in the secular Israeli community.

Cheers athol
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Post by Hadassah » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:34 pm

Dearest Athol,

Of course... I think that it would be horrible to be a married Jewish woman, to come to belief in Christ, and to have my entire world potentially turned upside down if I professed that belief. I do understand in part, but I have been struggling to really grasp the complete rejection on the Jewish side.

I should tell you that, while it may not be entirely comparable, this happens among Protestants and Catholics too. There is a Protestant man here in my parish who decided to become Catholic and his wife did nothing but cry about it at first. Granted, the Protestant culture may not reject them entirely, but some will. And another woman who, when she decided to leave her Lutheran congregation, told friends about it. They were unphased at first that she might move to another Protestant denomination (even one vastly different from her conservative and very, as she calls it, "Catholic-like" congregation). When asked with a smile where she was going, she said of course, "The Catholic Church". Smiles disappeared and they asked, "Why on earth would you do that?"
The Church obviously doesn't as it allows certain Catholics such as Catholic Jews to be secretly Catholic and to be dispensed from Sunday Mass and to attend at another time in the week in secrecy with the permission of the Bishop.
I had not heard that some bishops allow the practice of the faith in secret here in the US. I am a bit surprised, though it is certainly a situation where one would want to be very sensitive and loving. But officially, the Church does also make allowance for the case in which baptism and accepting the faith causes a rift between husband and wife, based on the fact that our relationship with Christ is primary and salvific. You probably know that this is called the Pauline Privilege. This privilege is only applied where the two parties are not baptized and the person's spouse refused to remain married to him or her after he or she received baptism. Based on 1 Corinthians 7:12-16, it allows the Catholic to remarry. Even St. Paul dealt with this situation and had explicit instructions about it.

I might raise this one last thing, which had been on my mind to bring up. I watched, "One Night With the King" the other night, a movie recounting the story of Esther. I began to think about Esther's keeping the fact that she was a Jewess a secret. I had never thought about it really, but wondered what feelings might be engendered in Jews when a Jewish person might keep their Judaism a secret.

God bless,
Hadassah

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Post by Athol » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:28 pm

Dear Hadassah,

It is even more than when a protestant becomes a Catholic- a Jew not only loses his religious friends but he in a sense loses his culture and then is forced to become part of another culture which can be wonderful but never fulfills that part of us that is jewish and that longs for jewishness. not sure if I have explained that very well.

cheers Athol
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