Rabbinical Catholicism?

Should Catholic Jews (and Messianic Jews) keep the Torah? How should Catholic Jews relate to rabbinical authority?

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What kind of Judaism should Jew Catholics related to?

Rabbinical Judaism
3
100%
Reform Judaism
0
No votes
Karaite Judaism
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

Yarden Zelivansky
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Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Yarden Zelivansky » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:59 am

Shalom.
As jews,who Converted to Catholicism,If you leave from the assumption that we DO need to keep the Torah,what kind of Judaism should we relate to,and why?

-Rabbinic Judaism,in which case (to my opinion) the Rabbinic Authority will conflict with the Papal one (and will also make our Catholicism the most difficult of all Religions)?
-Reform Judaism?
-Karaite Judaism,which is completly different from Rabbinical Judaism,the common Religion in Israel?

Ariel
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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Ariel » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:27 am

Shalom Yarden,

Good question - and I don't think anyone can have a set answer at this point.
Of your three options I would exclude Reform Judaism because it seems to me way too watered down.
I don't know enough about Karaite Judaism, but it seems to me that to keep a form of written Torah only without the oral traditions is impractical and impossible (e.g. no Temple worship, must stone disobedient son, etc...)
I would personally tend towards a variation of orthodox Judaism though obviously this would have to be adapted in some way to Catholicism. And it should be clear that any obligation towards Torah would not come from the Church but would rather derive from the Jewish Catholic's identity within Israel's covenant with God. So this could not be considered an "obligation" from the perspective of the Church, but perhaps one from the perspective of Torah/Judaism?
I don't know to be honest. Any other suggestions?
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Yarden Zelivansky » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:55 pm

What do you mean by 'too watered down'?
The Karaites have two kinds of temples.
They just believe in personal Interpretation of the Scripture.
Orthodox Judaism wise men (khazal) said that he who practices anything other then Judaism shall be sentenced to death...
That's not that great for us :?
If one chooses Orthodox Judaism,will his loyalty lay with Rabbis,or the Pope?
Will one take his Kipapah off when in a church?
For Jewish prayers-will one go to Synagogue,or a Hebrew-Catholic Church (i don't know even of one here,in Israel)?

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Yarden Zelivansky » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:06 pm

Also,Orthodox Jewish Law does not allow one to be inside a Church,wich might be a bit of a problem.

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Ariel » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:12 pm

Yes I do realize that there are serious problems and that rabbinical Judaism cannot be accepted in its entirely, but I still think it should be the main point of reference for a Jewish-Catholic spirituality because rabbinical Judaism is the normative form of Jewish Orthodoxy.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Hadassah » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:52 pm

Hello Ariel,

You wrote: "I would personally tend towards a variation of orthodox Judaism though obviously this would have to be adapted in some way to Catholicism. And it should be clear that any obligation towards Torah would not come from the Church but would rather derive from the Jewish Catholic's identity within Israel's covenant with God. So this could not be considered an "obligation" from the perspective of the Church, but perhaps one from the perspective of Torah/Judaism?"

Back for a little visit and found this interesting... If you have time, can you explain a little further? It sounds as though you are definitively saying that the Church could not recognize from the standpoint of Christianity the obligation of the Jews to observe Torah? Have I interpreted you correctly? If not, can you clarify.

Many Blessings,
Hadassah

Ariel
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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Ariel » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:56 am

hi Hadassah,

Regarding Torah observance I am not saying anything "definitely." These are just my thoughts. The Church traditionally has had a rather negative position on Torah observance. Definitely too negative in my opinion (oops, I just said something definitively!). I think the Church has become much more positive and respectful of Torah observance, but I seriously doubt that it could come to a point of REQUIRING Torah observance. That would be out of line with her mandate which is to be the guardian of the universal message of the Gospel and not of the particular law given to Israel.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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What Does the Church Guard?

Post by Hadassah » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:02 pm

Hello Ariel:
Ariel wrote:That would be out of line with her mandate which is to be the guardian of the universal message of the Gospel and not of the particular law given to Israel.
This is interesting. A line of thought worth pursuing in greater detail. Can the universal message of the Gospel be seen as something which has little or no effect on the particular way in which Israel is obedient to the Lord? And is the Church, which is the guardian of the Deposit of Faith and the Deposit of Grace, out of line, so to speak, with her mission when she speaks to such questions in a definitive manner?

Many Blessings,
Hadassah

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Ariel » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:39 pm

no I wouldn't say that.
Can the universal message of the Gospel be seen as something which has little or no effect on the particular way in which Israel is obedient to the Lord?
Absolutely not. On the contrary, the message of the Gospel has everything to do with how Israel is obedient to the Lord. No Gospel = no real obedience. Plus the Gospel is not only the power of salvation but also the power that enables one to keep the Torah.

And of course the Church should speak on these matters, perhaps more in a general way about the broad theological principles, but I doubt it would be her job to speak on the precise points of halakhah and Jewish Torah observance.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Hadassah » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:01 pm

Hadassah: "Can the universal message of the Gospel be seen as something which has little or no effect on the particular way in which Israel is obedient to the Lord?" Ariel: Absolutely not. On the contrary, the message of the Gospel has everything to do with how Israel is obedient to the Lord. No Gospel = no real obedience. Plus the Gospel is not only the power of salvation but also the power that enables one to keep the Torah.
And of course the Church should speak on these matters, perhaps more in a general way about the broad theological principles, but I doubt it would be her job to speak on the precise points of halakhah and Jewish Torah observance.
Of course, I would agree. But there are some who would not. Some, even among Christians, who would say that the particular way in which G-d commands obedience from Israel is not affected by the message of the Gospel, that these particulars are offered to Israel and are redemptive, salvific, apart from the Paschal Mystery. While I certainly agree that the Church has no place in the specifics of Jewish law, it seems to me that the Church speaks definitively that salvation is offered through Christ to both Jew and Gentile alike.

I recently had a priest (nothing new; and no one with any significant power, per se, but a very learned man) tell me that the Church could never say that the obedience to the Torah could be seen as required. Why? It would contradict the Gospel message, he said. So either it does or it doesn't. That's an issue for the Church, right?

And so then, if required Torah observance can exist within the framework of Christian theology, then an interesting question arises: why would the Church not have some jurisdiction over the way in which Torah is observed by a Christian Jew?

And then, how might we look at the power of the keys in this respect: "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven?" Isn't it logical that this power could extend to Torah observance? Or might we look at it differently... Just as the Church does not have the power to change something fundamental, like to abrogate the 6th commandment, for example, neither does she have the power to abrogate otehr points of Torah. But then, rabbis interpret all the time appropriate to particular situations. And there is a host of adaptation, for example, for life without a Temple. So where does that leave us?

I still have trouble reconciling these things. Just thinking out loud...

I hope that life is good!

Many, Many Blessings,
Hadassah

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Re: Rabbinical Catholicism?

Post by Athol » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:02 pm

The Pope and the Vatican would most likely not impose from above a form of Jewish Catholicism but allow it to develop from the grassroots. They would make rulings if something was contentious or against Catholic teaching on Faith or morals. At the moment the issue of Jewish Catholics and Torah observance has not been decided definitively by the church so different perspectives on this are still very much open to discussion. Most Catholics are still set in the old ways of reading Paul and the gospels from a Gentile perspective rather than from a Hebraic perspective and thus clinging to ways of theologising that led to the persecution of Jews throughout Christian History and the horror of the Holocaust. We know that the fruit of this theology was very much bad (leading to an uspeakable evil) and thus not of God.
Adore Wisdom

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