Moses - & the fulllfilment of the Law?

Should Catholic Jews (and Messianic Jews) keep the Torah? How should Catholic Jews relate to rabbinical authority?

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Moses - & the fulllfilment of the Law?

Post by Fidesetratio »

Hello All,

I have been thinking of how Yeshua came to not abolish the law but to fulllfill it. And how He says not one iota (dot?) will pass from the law etc..

The things I am having trouble with is some of Moses teaching -
One of them, an eye for an eye - but Yeshua changed that to turn the other cheek....
Teaching on divorce - but it was only permitted because of the hardness of their hearts etc....

OK - so what is troubling me is were some of Moses teachings from God or from himself??


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Post by mikemac »

Jesus Christ Himself was the fulfillment of the promise.

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Post by Fidesetratio »

mikemac wrote:Jesus Christ Himself was the fulfillment of the promise.
I kind of understand that - but I guess i need it "dumbed" down for me if you catch my drift!

There were some things that Moses taught that obviously was changed. Is changing those teachings (were they law?) same as fullfilling as Yeshua stated?

Or was it that some of Moses teachings (or laws?) were not from God but from himself??? ie. on divorce etc..

I may not have explained my question i hope the above clarifys of what im trying to understand....


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Post by mikemac »

Hi Rob. I guess I need the same answers that you are seeking. As far as I'm concerned the Old Testament is in the Bible to show the genealogies and the prophecies that came true in the New Testament. You've probably heard the saying 'the Old is revealed in the New'. In some parts of the world Catholics don't even study the Old Testament.

You certainly make a good point about an eye for an eye and divorce.

Galatians 3 says the Spirit, and the blessing promised to Abraham come not by the law, but by faith. Verses 21 and 25 say this,
21 Was the law then against the promises of God? God forbid. For if there had been a law given which could give life, verily justice should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe. 23 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.
"Pedagogue"... That is, schoolmaster, conductor, or instructor.

Galatians 3 finishes with this,
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.
That seems pretty clear to me.

To tell you the truth it doesn't make sense to me that Jewish converts to Catholicism would still continue to follow circumcision, the Passover or other Jewish practices. Simply because Baptism replaced circumcision, Sunday Mass the Sabbath, Easter or even the Eucharist replaced the Passover and so on. Glory71 goes into more detail on this thread,


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Post by Glory71 »

An excellent EXCELLENT question Fidesetratio. Let us dissect your question then so that we can better understand. Note that I will answer your question two folds. First is why we had the Mosaic Law and second, the answer to your question if the Law came from God or from Moses.

Old Covenant crime requiring death:

1. Murder Ex. 21:12, 14, Lev. 24:17, 21
2. Striking father or mother Ex. 21:15
3. Kidnapping Ex. 21:16, Deut. 24:7
4. Cursing father or mother Ex. 21: 17, Lev. 20:9
5. Harming pregnant woman Ex. 21:22, 23
6. Knowingly owning a violent ox that kills someone Ex. 21:29
7. Sorcery Ex. 22:18
8. Bestiality Ex. 22:19, Lev. 20:15, 16
9. Working on the Sabbath Ex. 35:2, Num. 15:32-36
10. Adultery Lev. 20:10-12, Deut. 22:22
11. Human sacrifices Lev. 20:2
12. Homosexuality Lev. 20:13
13. Blaspheming the name of the Lord Lev. 24:16
14. False prophecy Deut. 13:5
15. Worshipping false gods Deut. 13:6-10
16. Disobeying a priest Deut. 17:12
17. Disobeying a parent Deut. 21:18-21
18. Raping a betrothed young woman Deut. 22:25
19. Losing virginity before marriage Deut. 22:13-2

There is probably more of this…but this is all I can find thus far. Anyways let us press on…

Old Testament (on murder):

Leviticus 24:19-20: 19 Anyone who inflicts an injury on his neighbor shall receive the same in return. 20 Limb for limb, eye for eye, tooth for tooth! The same injury that a man gives another shall be inflicted on him in return.

New Testament:

Matthew 5:38–42: 38 You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” 39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on [your] right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. 40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. 41 Should anyone press you into service for a mile, go with him for two miles. 42 Give to the one who ask of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

Why such a different tone? In Old Testament, there is a lot of emphasis on righteousness and works and obedience, giving alms, and fasting, and all of that. However, Christ said…

Matt 5: 20 I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will NOT enter into the kingdom of heaven.

For me this is a big…ouch! What does Christ mean? Surely nobody could be more righteous than them at that time. You see my brothers and sisters, the Mosaic Law is the civic code of Israel that establishes good citizens. This is heavily emphasized in the book of Leviticus which almost is entirely legislative in character; the rare narrative portions are subordinate to the main legislative theme. However, when Christ came, He revealed all this laws to us by ‘internalizing’ all of them so that we don’t get angry, we don’t give in to lust to begin with. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is talking about us BECOMING SAINTS. This is the righteousness that goes beyond the scribes and the Pharisees.

The Mosaic Law and its relation to the coming of our Savior Jesus Christ.

In order for salvation to happen, God must have an ‘avenue’ from where salvation will come. This is why He kept and blessed the ancient Israelites - God’s chosen people. Just like Mama Mary, the Jews were a very important part on God’s Plan for our salvation. In the ancient world…the rest of humanity were pagans, unworthy in the eyes of God. But He loves them (for they are His children also) and wants to save them too. I will always be thankful to our Jewish brothers and sisters because without them…well…this is why I love them more than myself. Through them God fulfilled His promise of Salvation. This is the reason why God gave the law to them. To establish in them a righteous people from which the Son of Man will come. Through them (Jews), the grace of God flowed like a river as He prepares the coming of the salvation of mankind – His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. The Mosaic Law however, cannot and does not save or bring life for it only exposes what sin is and how God reacts to it (sin). Only through Christ, our Shepherd, can we be saved. The Mosaic Law cannot solve the problem of the very nature of sin - Rom. 8:3 For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. While there were laws of punishment in varying degrees, and fear of punishment helps keep people in line (for a lack of a better word), the Law does nothing to provide victory over sin. It is because of this fear of God’s punishment that made us obeyed Him, Glorify Him like never before. This can also be viewed as a relationship between the servants and their master.

But by the coming of the Messiah, He (the Living Word of God) revealed to us the Fatherhood of God and shared with us His own divine Sonship. This gave a deeper meaning of the mosaic law for He instilled in our hearts that burning desire to love God back. There was no change OF men but a change IN men. Loving God above everything else, putting Him first in our lives bring forth tremendous grace. As this ‘love’ of God continue to engulf our very soul, hearts, and minds, the Holy Spirit guides us…provides us with wisdom to know what is true and what is false, to know the very nature of sin and the punishment for it, to know what is good and what is evil. And thus the Mosaic Law became second nature to mankind. It is like us acting according to the law (following it obediently) instinctively without even having to memorize all of the mosaic law for indeed loving God above all brings good fruits. This can also be viewed as a relationship between children and their loving parent.

To finally answer your question my brother. Yes the Mosaic Law came to Moses through the angels but not directly from God – Galatians 3: 19 – Why, then, the law? It was added for transgression, until the descendant came to whom the promise had been made; it was promulgated by angels at the hand of a mediator. Who is this descendant? Take note descendant not descendants – Christ. Who is this mediator – Mosses.

As a further support to Gal 3: 19 please also read Dt 33, 2-4 and Acts 7 38.53.

Lastly, Moses did receive other instructions DIRECTLY from the Lord God and not just angels. Keep reading my brother. Open your mind and do not read the bible intellectually but rather as a little child – as an obedient child to an eternal Father.

Hope this helps my brother.

With so much respect and love to all of you,

Jon Glorioso

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Post by Ariel »

To tell you the truth it doesn't make sense to me that Jewish converts to Catholicism would still continue to follow circumcision, the Passover or other Jewish practices. Simply because Baptism replaced circumcision, Sunday Mass the Sabbath, Easter or even the Eucharist replaced the Passover and so on.
My suggestion would be to be a little more prudent before making such statements - especially if you are not Jewish and have no real-life experience of the things you claim the Church has replaced. Perhaps it would be more advised to consult Jews who have become Catholics and who continue to love the Torah.

While I understand that your statement is meant well and in good spirit, rash judgments on this issue are exactly what caused the great divide between Church and Synagogue in the first centuries of Christianity and what became the root of anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism. This is exactly the type of things that we want to humbly reconsider at Catholics for Israel.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Post by miryam »

as soon as I read Mike's comment concerning baptism replacing circumcision, Sunday Mass the Shabbat and so on I thought: here we are: this is exactly what you'd call "blowing up" the bridge between Jews and Catholics instead of building it!!! Then, fortunately, I read Ariel's reply and this saved me from telling Mike what initially came to my mind.
Maybe I'd better first introduce myself, but I'll make it brief: I was born, grew up and lived for 27 years of my life in an orthodox jewish family (loubavitch), then, one day, some 8 years ago, I met Jesus and I understood that really He is the Messiah. I am now a Dominican sister and I live in France. Now, Mike, I just hope your comment came from your complete lack of life-experience in what Shabbat, Pessa'h ' (should I say...judaism in general?) really mean and are. Because if you knew even a little these realities you would look at them not as some fancy and useless alternative to other Church's practises but as...should I say...preparatory steps. Just as Moses's Torah is necessary to understand and, even more important, live Yeshouah's teachings, so shabbat (let's just take this one...) is what still (yes! STILL!) makes Sunday Mass meaningful and possible. As you have certainly noticed, Sunday Mass is in fact a sort of a "summary", if I can say, of the shabbat practises that take place inside the house and in the synagogue. Were not for shabbat, Sunday Mass would not be, either. So: continuing to respect shabbat as catholic not only gives full meaning to Sunday Mass' celebration but it helps tremendously to really get heart and spirit ready to the encounter with Yeshouah the Messiah who in that moment lays down His life for us once more.
If, according to your logic, when I have Sunday Mass I need not have Shabbat any more, then, since Sunday Mass "belongs" to the NT and shabbat to AT, I would not need the AT to understand the NT! Have you ever tried to read the NT without the AT ?
Dear Mike, to this I could add (but I won't) what shabbat is, regarding to jewish identity and history, which Yeshouah never denied and, on the contrary, said to have come to fullfill. Do you really think that you can give fullfillment to anything by simply letting it drop ?
have a nice week.

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" I have loved you"/complementarity of the Co

Post by Richard »

The covenant of Sinai was established between G-d and the Jewish People after a magnificent and miraculous demonstration that all creation serves the will of G-d. This was most emphatically and dramatically demonstrated with the parting of the Red Sea, where, for the sake of the salvation of Israel, G-d suspended the natural order. At Mount Sinai G-d required His People, in imitation of Him (i.e., G-d is to the natural powers of creation as man is to the natural powers of his mind and body) to dedicate their own natural powers to the service of G-d.

The command, “Love thy neighbor as thyself. I am the Lrd.” typifies the spirit of the Covenant. It is as though G-d said to them: You have a natural inclination to love. Where G-d is absent, that love is self directed. Where G-d is present, it is directed to Him and other human beings. So now that My Presence has been revealed to you, direct that love to Me and to your neighbor. “I am the L-rd” is not simply a statement of authority. It is the foundation of the commandment, for the awareness of G-d’s Presence is what liberates the power to love from reinforcing the natural self-centeredness of the individual.

Jesus reformulated the commandment to love one’s neighbor. Calling it a “new commandment,” he said [12] "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. (John 15:12) He might have explained it this way: “In the First Covenant, I, who was revealed to you by the name of “I Am” (Jesus tell us that he is “I Am,” ) used nature to serve you. That required you, in turn, to use your nature and the natural world around you to serve Me. In this New Covenant, I gave up--I sacrificed--my body and my blood, my human nature, for love of you. Similarly, you should now be willing to sacrifice yourselves for love of each other, for the foundation of holiness is the imitation of G-d.

This interpretation of the command to love one’s neighbor, which is common to both the First and New Covenants, underscores their complementarity, for surely there is nothing in Jesus new commandment that relaxes our obligation to use our human nature and the world around us to serve G-d and neighbor. Rather, just as, after praying that “this cup” might be taken from him, Jesus found it necessary to sacrifice himself for the sake of his love of man, we, too, after ascertaining that “this cup” is required of us, must be willing to sacrifice ourselves for love of man.

The difference between these two statements of the command to love one’s neighbor also suggests the fundamental character of the two covenants. The First Covenant, which, in imitation of G-d, requires us to use our natural powers to serve Him, requires us to live for G-d. The New Covenant, which, in imitation of G-d, requires us to sacrifice our human nature to serve Him, requires us to die for G-d. The New Covenant reveals suffering as a path to G-d. The resurrection being the new life, the supernatural life, to which the Way of Suffering—the way of the Cross--leads.

The Sermon on the Mount illustrates this very clearly. Jesus begins by saying that blessings (grace) are conferred on those who suffer, and then continues to instruct those who suffer in the ethical standard which they are, by virtue of those extraordinary graces, are called to fulfill.

The Way of Suffering which Jesus taught supports the observance of the commandments. But it could not become a truly universal way to G-d, a universal religion, until it had been separated from Jewish observance. That was accomplished as the Gentile Church promoted a theology of Judaism that reflects the inevitably imperfect understanding of Judaism of anyone who does not participate in the Covenant of Sinai, who has not been sufficiently educated in Jewish observance, or who is inwardly obstructed by sin from receiving the grace which is conferred with the faithful obedience of the commandments. That theology, which separated Judaism from Catholicism, is no longer necessary, for the universal religion, Catholicism, is firmly established. The time has come to correct the misunderstandings and replace it with a theology of Judaism that reveals the sanctity of Judaism and explains why, as Jesus said, "Salvation is from the Jews."

The Gentile Christian is exempt from the commandments because he was not obligated to keep them on Mt. Sinai. His way to G-d is the Way of Suffering which Jesus taught, which G-d sanctified when He sacrificed His only beloved Son, and which the Church teaches within the framework of a comprehensive religious life. The Christian Jewish remains (as Jesus made very clear in Matt. 23 [2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; [3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you…” and elsewhere) obligated to observe Jewish Law. Indeed, the Cross deepens the spirituality of the Law and the Jew’s devotion to keeping it.

"You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; they are all zealous for the law, (Acts 21:20)

Paradoxically, the teachings of Jesus that established a universal saving faith redouble the Christian Jew’s devotion to the very particular way G-d gave him of living in the Presence of G-d. This paradox is suggested in the two most basic concepts of Christianity: the universal faith and the perfection of the Law of Moses. As the universal faith, it is separate from the particularities of Jewish observance. As the perfection of Judaism, it renews and animates obedience to the Law. The observant Jew whose Christian faith perfects his obedience to the Law cannot find a place for himself within the universal, the Catholic Church until she acknowledges and validates this uniquely Jewish response to the Cross.


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