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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:36 pm
by mikemac
Very nice post Glory71. I comfort in the fact that Jesus gave Mary to us as our Mother too.
Ariel wrote:Rob,

Re. the Assumption, see this: ... nto_heaven
This is a very good web site. With lots of Biblical reference it shows how Catholics should consider Mary. I especially like how it calls Mary the Arc of the Covenant (the Arc of the Word, Jesus Christ).

While praying the Holy Rosary we are to meditate on the Mysteries. The 4th Glorious Mystery is the 'Assumption of the Blessed Mary'. The 5th Glorious Mystery is 'Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth'.

I don't know how anyone could think that it is anybody but Mary that is the "woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" in Apocalypse 12.

When Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950 made the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary a feast day to be celebrated on August 15, as a Holy Day of Obligation it wasn't as if the Catholic Church had just recognized the Assumption then. It had been understood by the Catholic Church for centuries that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

In Mary's Canticle, Luke 1:46-55 Mary says "for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

I love referring to Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth. There is no human being that has played a more important role than Mary in God's plan. Mary is not the queen of heaven that the Old Testament refers to.

Regarding the statues and veneration of Mary I don't think there needs to be any more said. Hadassah and others as well as the web site that Ariel posted have basically covered that.

Seeing Messianic Judaism is preparing for the building of the third temple like the Christian Zionists are, then they are both in error.

I say they are both in error because both Apocalypse 3:12 and Apocalypse 21:2 tells us that the new Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God with the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Personally I don't believe we need to think of ways "we can change the Church for the better."

To the contrary I think both Messianic Jews and Christian Zionists should just read the Bible.

Maybe there should be another choice added to the poll, "Reading the Bible". For that reason I have chosen "Other".


Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:11 pm
by miryam
Hi all,
I just wanted to give my small contribution regarding the veneration of statues, processions and such.
Even though I know that statues are symbols and that Catholics do not adore statues but they adore Who the statue represents, nevertheless, it is rather disturbing seeing lots and lots of people kissing the doll baby Jesus at Christmas or kissing the statue of st Anthony from Padua, or I don't know who other. I don't see how a statue or an image could possibly help a more intimate relationship with G-d, Jesus Himself said that whoever sees Him (and not the statue of...) sees the Father. Personally, the only realistic image that can really help worship is the Shroud.
Shalom miryam

Re: Statues & Veneration of Mary

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:13 pm
by Gerat Tzedek
There is something missing from the poll.

Yes its kind of an all of the above, but something else needs to be acknowledged. It has to do with why a Jew who is a Christian chooses to be Messianic in the first place instead of being simply part of a protestant church. After all, most protestant churches are similarly down on statues and veneration of Mary and all that. But Messianic Jews similarly refuse to be a part of Protestant Churches. Why?

Because they refuse to be a part of any community which is not going to place their Jewish identity FIRST. In Messianic Judaism, the emphasis is on the Judaism. It is not without its obvious problems (the presence of scads of gentiles being the most obvious). But the liturgy is Jewish liturgy. The holy year is the Jewish holy year. The rites are those of Judaism.

What I'm trying to say is that even if all the statues and crosses and Marianism suddenly vanished from the Catholic Church, Messianic Jews would still not convert to Catholicism. Why? BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GENTILE.

Re: Statues & Veneration of Mary

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:08 pm
by Ariel
[Messianic Jewish] liturgy is Jewish liturgy. The holy year is the Jewish holy year. The rites are those of Judaism.
Messianic Jewish liturgy is Jewish liturgy? I would strongly disagree. In Israel anyway, I know of exactly one Messianic congregation that takes Jewish liturgy seriously. All the others are more evangelical Christian than Jewish.

I used to say similar things Gerat Zedek, that the Catholic Church is gentile, but I left the Messianic Jewish communities and joined the Catholic Church because in its theology and worship Catholicism is much closer to traditional Judaism than is Messianic Judaism (though there is still a lot of work to do, granted).

See my testimony for the reasons why I moved from Messianic Judaism to Catholicism.


Re: Statues & Veneration of Mary

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:01 pm
by mikemac
Yeah Gerat the Catholic Church is both Hebrew and Gentile, hence the name. Catholic means universal in Greek.

Re: Statues & Veneration of Mary

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:04 am
by Athol
Well I can only speak for myself someone who is Jewish and Catholic. I have no problems with stroking the statues of Mary and the saints and kissing my hand (or kissing the crucifix on Good friday and the baby Jesus statue on Christmas). afterall I have no problem with stroking and kissing the mezuzuah on doorways and touching and kissing my hands after touching the cover on the Torah scroll or kissing the Kotel and stroking it. The Bible forbids us to make images of false gods (i.e idols) and to bow down and worship them. Holy images are a different matter such as the cherubim in the Temple, the 12 Oxen in the Temple and even the Nehushtan. Alot of times it is just one's cultural prejudices. the devotional practices of Northern Europeans seem somewhat cold to southerners and southern European devotions seems overly sentimental and glitzy to Northerners etc I love to venerate the tombs and relics of the Catholic saints just as I love to venerate the tombs and relics of the Jewish saints and rebbes.
All this veneration finds its ultimate source in God alone. Archeologists have found ancient synagoges full of biblical images and many Passover haggadas have wonderful images in them.