Is the teachings of the Church the fulfillment of the old?

On the identity of Jews who have found Yeshua. Dialog between Messianic Jews and Catholic Jews. What unites us and what divides us? How can we work towards unity?

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Is the teachings of the Church the fulfillment of the old?

Post by Glory71 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:31 am

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill." Matthew 5: 17.

If the prophets of the old testaments points to Jesus as the Messiah, AND if the Messiah Himself says that He did not come to abolish in anyway the old covenant ritual but rather perfects it so that fulfillment doesn't do away with liturgy but rather introduces a liturgy that is far more powerful than anything we had in the old...most certainly there must be a church out there that the Messiah Himself founded whose practices actually reflects this fulfillment...right? If so what church is it? Are there any proofs that it is actually doing it consistently?

I humbly ask this question so that we as Catholics bear witness to this truth and to fully appreciate the unity we have always had with our Jewish brothers and sisters.

Let me start...

God - Father of a nation (from the Old Testament)

Covenant of Circumcision - As long as there would be human beings in the world, God assured Abraham, there would always be Jews. This covenant or pact between God and Abraham was sealed through the act of circumcision.

By the way, my son, me, my father, his father before him, and so on and so forth have all participated in this covenant.

God - Father of the world (from the New Testament)

Sacrament of Baptism - Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."

I will end here so that others may continue. There are many more like the Passover to Eucharist; Sabbath Day (7th day of the week) to the Lord's Day (1st day of the week).

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Post by guardian » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:31 pm

Dear Glory71

Shalom, Glory for what I have thought that our church or temple are the chosen ones? I thought that we are already the witness of Christ's
coming that is the second coming?


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Post by Glory71 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:19 am

My brother,

Peace be with you too. May God Almighty's Glory and Holiness shine upon our souls.

Yes we are. Through baptism (Ephesians Chapters 1 to 3 is dedicated to this) makes us 'partakers' of the Divine Nature of God. It draws us into a close relationship with God that even Moses on top of Mt. Sinai enjoyed.

In the Old Testament the ancient Israelite properly treasured the word of God especially the law of God written with the finger of God on tablets of stone. What more could we want then? Well - The Word made Flesh dwelling among us. He (Christ) is assuming what is ours (human nature) to give us what is His (divine nature. His Divine Son ship). Christ did not come as a substitute. He comes as a representative. He did not come to get us off the hook so that we are exempt from obedience but rather to empower us with His Spirit. To reproduce in us nothing less than His own Divine Sonship. Because of this The Holy Spirit sanctify us (empowers us) to keep the law and do God's will; hence we are now walking under God's grace.

Christ on the cross became the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Without this, no one can be saved for the sins (debt) of world were still unpaid for. Through His sacrifices on the cross, the ocean mercy is opened up for the whole world (3 O Clock Divine Mercy Prayer). And oh btw, for those who do not know this prayer…here it is:

You expired, Jesus, but the source of life gushed forth for souls
and the ocean of mercy opened up for the whole world.
O Fountain of Life, unfathomable Divine Mercy,
envelop the whole world and empty Yourself out upon us.

O Blood and Water,
which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus
as a fountain of mercy for us,
I trust in You.

Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One,
Have mercy on us and on the whole world. (3 times)

JESUS, King of mercy, I trust in You!


On His 2nd coming however, this will change. The time of saving grace, the time of mercy is OVER…and the time of JUDGEMENT will begin. He will come with all His might, with all His Glory, with all His power not as a merciful savior but as a just judge. “He will come again to judge the living and the dead” – Apostles Creed. My Lord and my God, please do not come yet. Give us more time to repent. The world whom You love so much needs more time. Please empower us with Your Spirit to do what is good and just and avoid evil so that when we leave this world; we die under Your saving grace and not in a state of mortal sin. My Lord and my God, please have mercy on us.

This is also the reason why Christ had to come 2000 years ago to save His people and correct their path first - showing us the way. So that in His 2nd coming, those who are His obedient children will pass. And those who are not will…sadly…will fail. HOWEVER, God in His infinite wisdom has not revealed to us who will be included in the book of life. Saying this, we have no heavenly right to judge others. As I have said in my previous post on a different thread, it is important (as Christ puts it) that we be like little obedient children when it comes to our relation with our God. In keeping with His laws, He puts it very clearly - Love God above all, and our neighbor as our selves (which is the summation of the 10 commandments).

To add further to topic I started:

God’s started His creation on the 1st day and ended 7 days after. Well guess what, we failed Him. We fell. Anyways on the 7th day God rested. In the book of Genesis Sabbath was never mentioned. There was no Sabbath command given to man to observe after the creation because only God created and rested. It was only given to God’s chosen people at Mt. Sinai (book of Exodus) hence the Sabbath day was made for man in anticipation of a future gift.

New Creation.

In the old covenant, we work and work and waited (7th day) until God would send His eternal rest of salvation. So how appropriate it was for the 1st 6 days to be work days and the 7th day to be a day for rest because we are still waiting for God to fulfill His promise of eternal salvation or rest. In the new covenant, God who renewed us through His Son (as Hebrews 4 puts it achieved our eternal Sabbath…rest); we became the new Adam and new Eve. A new creation. We became again partakers of His Divine kingdom the way it was before the fall. God did not have to re-create the entire universe for it has faithfully and still is following laws set by God to it (like laws of gravity, etc.) but rather what was recreated ‘on the first day of the week’ was us (the only one who failed God when He started everything). Not only was Christ raised on Sunday (victory), but all His appearances and the Decent of the Holy Spirit (Pentecost) happened on a Sunday…THE LORDS DAY. And speaking of the Pentecost - historically and symbolically related to the Jewish harvest festival of Shavuot or the day, fifty days after the Exodus, on which God gave the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai.

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Post by Glory71 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:31 am

Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I felt I need to add more emphasis on how we Catholics begin to gather, worship, participate, and join the angels and saints with God in the Eucharistic, liturgical celebration of the mass every Sunday. Personally, I feel drawn to our Sunday Catholic Mass and can't hardly wait for the next mass to happen in order to receive the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. His own flesh and blood freely given us. And those who are non-catholics...we are not We are simply obeying what Christ has commanded believing in every word He said.

I said put more emphasis because awhile back I saw a documentary on the Shroud of Turin. The fabrics of time. I got lucky when I tried to google it and surprisingly found it on YouTube.Com. It in a way gave a "very light" understanding (from a scientific point of view) on this new creation I was talking about.

And thus...moderators...good sirs...please allow me to attached the video (part 4).

And to the viewers, you can forward the attached video to about 4 minutes and listen carefully how the scientist seem to relate to this phenomenon as a true event horizon and the concept of singularity. For us faithful it simply is The Resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I like the way Ms. Dame Isabel Piczek - a particle physicist puts it "We have nothing less in the tomb of Christ than the beginning of a new universe."

Video - Turin Shroud. Fabrics of Time Part #4


Please do not be confused neither should anyone conclude this video that I have attached as a basis in finding and being intimate with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but rather as a slap on tom hanks and his da vinci code movie. Moreover, the shroud of turin is irrelevant to us believers (because we already know the truth) nor is it relevant to the children of the devil (because of their refusal of the truth) but rather I believe the shroud of turin is for those who are STILL in between. It is also worthy for us to note that science seems to be on God's side this time, the way they used to be back in the old days. The way it should be.

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Post by mikemac » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:43 pm

I didn't bother watching the da vinci files movie because I had previously read the predecessor, the book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail. It was the most disgusting book I've ever read. I had to put it down many times before finishing it. Apparently Opy and the da vinci files crowd are coming out with another Catholic slander movie this year.

But on a good note there was a Turin Shroud display that was shown at some Catholic Churches here in Ontario a couple of years ago. St. Paul's in Lakefield just north of where I live held the display in our area. Obviously they used a copy of the Shroud. It was quite the display with lots of proof even down to showing that Jesus, who the image on the Shroud was taken from had ringlets on each side of his face like some Orthodox Jews still have. It even showed the marks on His hands and feet. The display was well worth seeing. I like how the video talks about the images of the flowers of Jerusalem on the Shroud and the coins on Jesus's eyes dating back to Herod's time.


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Post by Glory71 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:39 pm

So true brother Mike. I myself wonder how much hatred evil has for our God. his (satan) grasp on this world is so tight that he won't rest even for a second. Can you imagine the hatred he has for God? the father of all lies (the serpent) is cunning. We must always put our guard up.

Anyways let us continue...

A few days ago we talked about how circumcision of the old became baptism of the new. Its significance? Both is about being part/ "mark"* of belonging to a family…specifically - The Family of God. We have a bloody ritual leading to a cleansing. We also saw how our waiting (Sabbath) was fulfilled by God on the Lord's Day. Today let us talk about the Passover and how we came to celebrate the Eucharist.

The original Passover offered an unblemished, one year old lamb. The lamb was than cooked in a special manner and the blood, at least in the first Passover, was painted onto the doors and windows of the house. The meat was than eaten. As the faithful inside the house sat praying they were passed over by the Angel of Death. They were then instructed to continue the practice and teach what happened. (Note that I underlined important words here). In the new Passover, the Eucharist, the unblemished lamb is now the Lamb of God, Jesus. Please note that in John’s Gospel it places the Last Supper** on the night before Passover. Christ was then arrested and crucified the next day. Jesus was crucified at the same time that the Passover lambs were being slaughtered at the temple for the meal that would follow that evening. Passover was the day of the Lord's crucifixion for indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 1 Cor 5 verse 7 “clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed.” For further reading, let me give this link: ... ixion.html. Please do read the link.

Furthermore, the day of our Lords crucifixion is highly contested. Some say He was crucified on Wednesday. We say on Friday. Notice how some people starts counting (3 days and 3 nights) AFTER Christ has died on the cross and even put the following words on their arguments that - Jesus said that, like the prophet Jonah, He would be entombed three days and three nights and that He would be raised up the third day after His crucifixion and death (Matthew 12:39-40). If we read this verse carefully there was no mention – “after His crucifixion and death” and even of the word “tomb” was never mentioned. I guess they equate tomb with the belly of the whale. Reading the two verses it specifically says this: 39 He said to them in reply, “An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. 40 Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the HEART OF THE EARTH three days and three nights.

A person will definitely miss this if they do not know how to pray, contemplate, and meditate on The Rosary given to us by Mama Mary. The sorrowful mysteries do not begin with Christ’s death on the cross – His crucifixion. In fact it is the end. The sorrowful mystery begins with THE AGONY IN THE GARDEN where Christ sweats in blood. This IS the beginning of the Son of Man's passion. The beginning of Him being in the belly of pure pure evil as He begins to take up the sins of the entire world. The beginning of His suffering. And if we start on the Agony in the Garden – This will be the 1st night. Friday – the Crucifixion will be the 1st day; His tomb, the 2nd night; Saturday morning, 2nd day, Saturday evening 3rd night…and finally Sunday morning, His 3rd day – Resurrection. You’ve got then 3 days and 3 nights. Just watch the movie - the passion of Christ. It would not be complete if it will not start from the Agony in the Garden. This mystery can be understood by and through praying the Holy Rosary.

Sorry for being sideswiped there as I felt I need to stress the above. Anyways, moving forward…

Eucharist as the New Passover

1. The Last Supper occurred on the Feast of the Passover
2. The lamb used for the Passover was unblemished
3. Christ is the Lamb of God
4. The bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ
5. Christ was unblemished by sin

From these five observations, it appears that the Eucharist was intended as an extension and changing of the original Passover. The changing of the Passover comes from what is being offered as sacrifice. As I have mentioned earlier the original Passover offered an unblemished, one year old lamb. In the Eucharist the unblemished only begotten Son of God (the True Lamb) is offered. The Angel of Death approaches all souls but the Jesus tells us that when that time is up we have the opportunity to live forever or go to Hell and suffer death. It is this Death that the new Passover protects us from, death with no chance for redemption, the death of the soul. Eating His body and drinking His blood (as God commanded) reproduces in us nothing less than Himself. Strength to our weak flesh and Holiness for our own souls.


* The beast also has his own mark. For those who have wisdom, will know this.

** The Passover is never to be confused with the Last Supper.

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Post by mikemac » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:46 pm

Exactly Glory. And we receive the mark of Jesus Christ again in two days on Ash Wednesday. I've read that the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet is the mark of the cross, +. I don't know where I read that, it could have been in here. The following chart is the Old Hebrew alphabet from roughly the 8th century BCE.


I really like how you call Mary, Mama Mary, cause Jesus did give her to us as our Mother. I remember when my mother told me this when I was a kid. I said but you are my mother. Mom said now you have two which put a big smile on my face.

Thanks for the link. I go to forums where sometimes I have conversations with Muslims. As you probably know they have a story where Jesus wasn't crucified. I'll have to remember to use that link to show them what happened. With the veil of the temple being rent in two, the earth quake and the rocks were rent as well as what is described in that link it's hard to imagine why the Jews of that day that followed the Pharisees could not accept Jesus as their Messiah.

The link says this,
Pope Benedict XVI, in his Holy Thursday homily for 2007 pointed out that Jesus; "celebrated Passover with his disciples probably according to the calendar of Qumran, that is to say, at least one day earlier -- he celebrated without a lamb, like the Qumran community who did not recognize the Temple of Herod and was waiting for a new temple."
I have read that Herod was a king of Edom and his temple was the temple of Edom. This would help explain why most of them didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah. Both wikipedias for Edom and Herod the Great as well as this Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs web page on the Kingdom of Herod all say King Herod was of Edomite extraction.

To tell you the truth I don't fully agree with Ariel's support for the state of Israel. In Malachias 4 we see that "Behold I will send you Elias the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord" for the conversion of the Jews. In Apocalypse 11 we see the two witnesses, obviously one is Elias (or someone with the spirit of Elias), will "prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days" or 42 months or 3 and a half years (that specific number is mentioned throughout the Bible as the times of tribulations), the two witnesses will be killed and raised up in 3 and a half days at the coming of Jesus Christ.

It is very well documented, mostly by Jews themselves that the large majority of the Jews in the world today are Ashkenazi Jews and they are politically in control of the state of Israel. I'll supply proof if needed. We can see from both Genesis 10 and 1 Paralipomenon 1 that Ascenez was descended from Noe's (Noah) son Japheth. We can also see from those two chapters that Abraham, Issac and Jacob were descended from one of Noe's (Noah) other sons called Sem (Shem in the KJB).

It is also very well documented that the Zionists plan to build the third temple. Again I will supply proof if needed. But in both Apocalypse 3 and Apocalypse 21 we see that the new Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God with the return of Jesus Christ.

We also know from 2 Thessalonians 2 that the antichrist has to sit in the temple as if he were God before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

We know this has to happen before the second coming of Jesus Christ, it's inevitable. But personally I do not want to take part in placing the antichrist in the temple by supporting the state of Israel. Those that do will be Forcing God's Hand and working for the other side. I don't want that stain on my soul. And I do not agree with the Zionist brutality either.


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Post by Ariel » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:18 pm


If you have no interest in supporting Israel, what are you doing in this forum? And what is about the jab on "zionist brutality" while ignoring the existential threat that Israel faces daily from Islamist neighbors committed to its destruction? How then do you propose to explore the bond that spiritually ties the Jewish people with Christians - by simply dismissing in one sentence what is most central to God's covenant with His people - the land of Israel?
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Post by Glory71 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:06 am

Hello Mike,

I am writing because I felt I need to clarify things. Ariel might give me the looks again for my answer will be long <<<smiling>>>. I am sure he will understand.

Brother Mike, please do not give another interpretation to what I have written. It was intended to give harmony and not to discredit the other for how can one understand the new if they don't see the light of the old. Simply put, the Church has a strong emphasis on tradition. And this tradition dates as far back as you can find in the Old Testament.

Also, the Church had various cautions about lay reading of the Bible. Be very careful when you read it (The Bible) especially the back part of it - The Book of Revelation. What if I tell you that there already IS a temple located at the visual center of an ancient platform known as the Temple Mount? This is the site of the Second Jewish Temple which was destroyed during the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Jews where actually relegated to worship on the far side of this wall. What if I tell you that based on MY microscopic, minute, extremely light SPECULATION, the Anti-Christ might come there? Oh Mike, I truly hate to say what I have just said for others might misinterpret this again - that I am pre-judging others. The people worshiping there are also righteous by their own right. Some of the people preaching hatred there however are absolutely wrong and those who blindly follow them also have judgment that awaits them.

And since we are talking about the book of Revelation which is probably the most mysterious books of the bible, let me tell you then with absolute certainty that it is not what most people think. The reason why it is mysterious is because it is not understood on the context that it should be understood. It was written in the 1st century either by Saint John himself or his apostles. The whole purpose of the book of revelation was to describe the mass. Yes THE Mass and the benefits derived from it. This is misunderstood because it is not being read according to the early Christian tradition. Just look at what mass and the book of revelation shares…there is an altar, there is robed clergymen, there are candles, there’s incents, there’s manna, there’s chalices, Sunday worship, there’s the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Holy, Holy, Holies, there’s the Gloria, there’s the sign of the cross, the alleluia, the scripture reading, there’s the Lamb of God repeated throughout it. There is no way one can go to a Catholic Mass without being immersed in the book of revelation. And the book of revelation is peppered with the Catholic mass because that’s what it is.

Let us look further…John was lifted up to heaven and saw a temple IN heaven. And in the temple, the Ark of the Covenant can be seen. He then follows it up with The Woman clothe with the sun.

This book won’t be complete without the dragon. What does the dragon do, he summons the beast and they launch their attacks against the church to two different means (1) through political authority and (2) through religious authority. The mark of the beast is not on the 1st beast (the corruptor of political authority) so you can forget about Nero and the likes of him. The mark of the beast is from the 2nd beast the corruptor of religious authority. There is a mockery to God by satan here. God enthrones the Lamb, satan enthrones the beast also. Those who worship the lamb gets a mark. Those who worship the beast gets a mark also – 666. Who is this beast? We don’t know. The Church stops right here period. Why? For we are not waiting for the beast. We are waiting for Christ for what can the beast do to us. Kill us if he will but he will never take our soul for it only belongs to God and God alone.

Also in the end the book of Revelation is about Someone who is to come. It is about the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ but in two different ways. 1st is His coming to the liturgy of the mass. His coming is happening right now when the priest holds up that host and says this is my body – transubstantiation, it becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The 2nd is His actual 2nd coming…Judgment day.

It is ironic however how some people actually accuse the Church as being the Harlot in this book (from our fellow Christians of different denomination). Some say it’s Israel. Look at these Mike, for me there are two kinds of people (1) the persecuted and (2) those who persecute. An awful lot of us do persecute because just in the case of the book of revelation for example...many tend to overlook the obvious as we try to thumb through it to find the extravagant.

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Post by Gerat Tzedek » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:40 am

King David wrote:

The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.

10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.


If the Covenant between G-d and Israel is PERFECT, as David writes, then nothing can improve upon it, or replace it.

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Post by Hadassah » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:55 am

Gerat Tzedek wrote:WAS HE WRONG?????? If the Covenant between G-d and Israel is PERFECT, as David writes, then nothing can improve upon it, or replace it.
It is not perfect, at least in that it is not extended to all men. The Covenant in Christ brings brings a universal nature to what was previously only between G-d and Israel.

Many Blessings,
Last edited by Hadassah on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Fidesetratio » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:01 am

Hadassah wrote:Hello,
Gerat Tzedek wrote:WAS HE WRONG?????? If the Covenant between G-d and Israel is PERFECT, as David writes, then nothing can improve upon it, or replace it.
It is not perfect, at the very least in that it is not extended to all men. The Covenant in Christ brings brings a universal nature to what was previously only between G-d and Israel.

Many Blessings,
Hello all,

If i may throw in my 2c...

Just yesterday in bible study we looked at Jerimiah 31 : 31
In regards to repacing the old covenant - well i will let scripture speak for me....

"The Lord says, "The time is coming when i will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the old covenant that i made with their ancenstors when i took them by the hand and led them out of egypt. Although i was like a husband to them they did not keep that covenant.....

Also, ironically, the week before this we actually studied on how the law is PERFECT through the psalms...

My personal take on this is, is that the Law is indeed perfect - but not fullfilled. As above in Jeremiah, Israel still couldnt keep a perfect law from God and kept turning God had a remedy...

An analogy that may help is that of making a cake....say a sponge cake,
the sponge portion can be perfect, but its not complete (ie. fullfilled) without the frosting on top....
So...the sponge is the old covenant, it is edible and satisfying, but with the frosting, ie. new covenant, it is all the much sweeter!

I know the analogy isnt great and it kinda popped into my please dont crucify me over it... :) but thats how i see it....
Now only 3 more weeks and i can have my mudcake! Lent is hard!


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Post by Ariel » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:49 am

I would say that yes, the Law is perfect, but perfect in its context of place and time of where and when it was given. The Torah is perfect, but the people who are supposed to keep it are not. The Torah does not have the power to transform them from the inside by the power of the Holy Spirit. It does not have the power to deal with their fallen nature, regenerate them and impart God's divine life into them. Moreover, the perfect Torah includes a Temple, priesthood and sacrificial system which has been absent from Judaism for nearly 2,000 years - so Israel is simply unable to keep the perfect Torah as it stands today. And as Hadassah said, it does not extend to all humanity.

More importantly, the same perfect Torah includes the promise of a New Covenant that will be in perfect continuation with it. So to accept the perfect Torah means to also recognize that Israel falls short in keeping it (an impossibility) and to accept its fulfillment in the coming of the Messiah, His establishing of a New Covenant, his universalizing the Torah's promises beyond one people to the whole world, and transforming the fallen nature of man back to the divine image.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world” C.S. Lewis

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Re: Is the teachings of the Church the fulfillment of the old?

Post by mikemac » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:25 pm

I love your sponge cake analogy Rob.

Just recently I was reading that the first coming of Jesus Christ was to bring mercy (the frosting on the cake) while the second will be for judgment.

Enjoy your cake in a couple of weeks.

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